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linteater
Jun 2, 2011, 6:12 PM
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Hi Everyone!
So my partner and I recently started learning to lead climb at the gym. He has a habit of pulling two arm lengths (at least) of slack before clipping (and he clips high). Usually he'll pull an arms length of rope and place it on either his thigh or his stomach, and then he'll pull another arms length to clip, leaving quite a bit of slack between his harness and the clip, but not much between me and the clip.
It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position.
It terrifies me, to be honest. Is there something, as a belayer, that I should be doing to mitigate these falls? The gym employees really discourage clipping in for some reason, (something about how it could give my legs rope burn or cause a lot of pain with the snap).
I've tried telling him that he needs to take less slack, but he's insisting he needs that much to clip. Is this his fault, or mine? I really want to fix this problem before we take this outside with real sharp pointy rocks.
Thanks!
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redlude97
Jun 2, 2011, 6:20 PM
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The leader can take as much slack as he wants(reasonably) to clip. Falling while clipping with slack out isn't that uncommon. The problem seems to be with the weight difference. In a gym you should clip in if there are anchors in the floor, or to a heavy pack. Flying in the air can be a problem even when not clipping when he is between bolts.
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noell
Jun 2, 2011, 6:30 PM
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1 - The leader could find better stances for clipping. The need to clip low sounds like an issue. Get to a good clipping stance that allows the leader to pull out a reasonable amount of slack, and clip safely.
2 - I weigh about 50-60 lbs less than most folks I belay. I NEVER clip in. The dynamic effect of my going up in the air a bit keeps their fall soft. If I were to clip in and the leader fell, they very may well end up slamming into the wall with a hard catch.
3 - When you climber is getting ready to clip, be aware and ready. You may be able to yard in a few arm loads of slack before he falls. Communicate effectively. Make sure you know if he's comfortable making the clip or not.
In summary - leader needs to find better clipping stances, belayer can yard in slack, and both need to communicate effectively.
I hope that helps!
(This post was edited by noell on Jun 2, 2011, 6:31 PM)
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qwert
Jun 2, 2011, 6:39 PM
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linteater wrote: Hi Everyone! So my partner and I recently started learning to lead climb at the gym. He has a habit of pulling two arm lengths (at least) of slack before clipping (and he clips high). Usually he'll pull an arms length of rope and place it on either his thigh or his stomach, and then he'll pull another arms length to clip, leaving quite a bit of slack between his harness and the clip, but not much between me and the clip. It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position. It terrifies me, to be honest. Is there something, as a belayer, that I should be doing to mitigate these falls? The gym employees really discourage clipping in for some reason, (something about how it could give my legs rope burn or cause a lot of pain with the snap). I've tried telling him that he needs to take less slack, but he's insisting he needs that much to clip. Is this his fault, or mine? I really want to fix this problem before we take this outside with real sharp pointy rocks. Thanks!
The solution to that is easy:
Tell the climber to clip at hip to chest level. If he refuses to do so, make him do so. Just dont give him rope to clip high. Unless the routes in your gym are built in such a way that you cant clip another way, but nowadays that should not be the case anymore.
qwert
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redlude97
Jun 2, 2011, 6:53 PM
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Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance?
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hafilax
Jun 2, 2011, 7:00 PM
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If you weigh considerably less then perhaps you shouldn't be belaying him. Anchoring is a bad idea since it can make for really hard catches which can result in some nasty falls and possibly injuries.
As for clipping techniques, for high clips it's often hard to pull exactly the right amount so there will usually be a little extra. 2 feet sounds extreme. How does he pile the rope on his lap or stomach? I usually use my teeth.
If you're going to clip high you'd better be sure that you're going to make it. That means that you should be on the biggest jug within reach of the clip. Otherwise climb higher in order to clip closer to the waist. I tend to clip between face level and waist level which rarely requires two grabs of rope. It's more efficient and safer if the holds allow it.
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linteater
Jun 2, 2011, 8:32 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance?
I think this might be part of the problem. The climbs at the gym are generally set up so the best stance possible is around waist/head level for my partner, but I think he likes the "added security" of being clipped in sooner, and will clip from less optimal stances to that end.
Maybe I could buy a weighted vest for the express purpose of lead belaying him... :)
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petsfed
Jun 2, 2011, 9:23 PM
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linteater wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I think this might be part of the problem. The climbs at the gym are generally set up so the best stance possible is around waist/head level for my partner, but I think he likes the "added security" of being clipped in sooner, and will clip from less optimal stances to that end. Maybe I could buy a weighted vest for the express purpose of lead belaying him... :)
Tell your partner to practice clipping more so that they don't want more rope than they need. A good approach for those long clips is to reach as low as possible to grab the rope, and attempt the clip. If that's not enough bite the rope right next to your hand, and reach again. Anymore than that and they are risking an enormous fall for no good reason. If I worked at that gym and saw that occurring, I'd void your partner's lead test and make them retake it. At the gym I used to work at, I'd fail people over blown clips because of precisely this. Part of the art of leading is learning just how much rope you need for the clip, and you don't need to be on a hard route to practice that.
For what its worth, you need to make it clear that striving for that "added security" (which is illusory) is actually increasing the odds that a blown clip will end poorly. That is, if he isn't on a good jug (at least for his ability level) when he's clipping, he's being unsafe.
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sungam
Jun 2, 2011, 9:29 PM
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Yeah, after reading that report a few years back I always use the tipsssy tips of my teeth and my lips. Or at least I try to, often I just stuff it in... *insert joke*
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ENARE
Jun 2, 2011, 9:33 PM
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Ive never heard of that being done but maybe it could work. I lead with a person who weighs much less than myself.
However, as a leader, I am conscious of the fact that I am going to make sure I am solid and will not deck if I fall. Something your leader may want to start to be more conscious of as well.
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shockabuku
Jun 2, 2011, 10:11 PM
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My daughter, who is rather short, has a similar issue with pulling a lot of slack to clip high. I was just telling her the other day that it's both safer, and less strenuous, to clip from a higher stance - provided that one exists. But most people have the (incorrect) instinct to clip low, thinking they'll fall less far.
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Jun 2, 2011, 10:12 PM)
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redlude97
Jun 2, 2011, 10:39 PM
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j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall.
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olympicmtnboy
Jun 2, 2011, 10:57 PM
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Your partner should hav enough slack to make the clip and not 2 ft extra. You want enough to have the rope going from the belayer, through the draw, and back to the leaders harness while at the clipping stance without significant extra. If he has extra all the time he's doing it wrong and unneccesarily increasing his fall distance (and the likliehood of hitting a ledge or pulling his belayer into the wall if you go outside someday). He needs more practice on easier stuff to not have extra slack in the system.
Falling while clipping does happen and sucks. You'll get picked up if you are lighter. You can sometimes suck slack in quickly as you see the fall, but you won't get more than a good arm length.
Just my $0.02.
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lena_chita
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Jun 3, 2011, 1:01 PM
Post #17 of 49
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linteater wrote: It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position.
This should have been a wake-up call to HIM, just like it was for you. But apparently he is either too oblivious to the danger/consequences of a big fall close to the ground, or he needs a more painful lesson, which won't be fun for anyone.
Hopefully over time your partner will learn to better evaluate the situation and to find optimal clipping stances. Gym climbs are, usually by necessity, pretty short, so you are in a ground fall territory for most of the climb. Climbs outside are often taller, so after the 3rd-4th bolt on most climbs you have a bit of a leeway in terms of a fall distance, even if he pulls out extra slack to clip andyou get pulled up.
Maybe next time he is climbing, you guys can try deciding which holds he would clip from, while he is still on the ground. (Ask the route-setter what he envisioned, or watch more experienced climbers to see where they are clipping from on that route). And then once he is on the route, make him stick to it. Remind him, if he starts reaching for the rope earlier, and don't give him the rope. If you are both on the same page about it before he leaves the ground-- e.i. you both agree on the reasons for doing this-- it should be good.
Ultimately, in real-life situation, if a leader asks for the slack to clip, you give it. Even if you think it would be better to clip from a different hold, or it would be better not to have quite that much... I know that i have done it more then once, sketched out and clipping from a low hold. I would be pissed if my belayer started arguing with me instead of yarding the slack out when I asked for it.
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notapplicable
Jun 3, 2011, 1:53 PM
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lena_chita wrote: Ultimately, in real-life situation, if a leader asks for the slack to clip, you give it. Even if you think it would be better to clip from a different hold, or it would be better not to have quite that much... I know that i have done it more then once, sketched out and clipping from a low hold. I would be pissed if my belayer started arguing with me instead of yarding the slack out when I asked for it.
This is correct, once you have threaded your belay device, you have lost all veto power. It is important to communicate with your partner before, during and after a climb about safety issues and how you might generally improve your ropework as a team but, at the end of the day, the climber is calling the shots. The belayers main job is to facilitate the leaders efforts on the wall and keep them off the deck when they fall. Belayers are essentially support staff.
Thats not to say you have to climb with someone you consider dangerous; I would encourage you not to, actually.
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darkgift06
Jun 3, 2011, 3:17 PM
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I suggest that you guys climb easier stuff, & keep on him when hes clipping to ensure hes only taking enough slack as he needs.
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2011, 4:12 PM
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lena_chita wrote: linteater wrote: It's happened twice where he's taken a ton of slack to clip in, then fallen before clipping, pulling me into the air since I weight considerably less. Once he ended up 2 feet from the ground, the other time he could have stood comfortably on the ground, but luckily fell in a seated position. This should have been a wake-up call to HIM, just like it was for you. But apparently he is either too oblivious to the danger/consequences of a big fall close to the ground, or he needs a more painful lesson, which won't be fun for anyone. Hopefully over time your partner will learn to better evaluate the situation and to find optimal clipping stances. Gym climbs are, usually by necessity, pretty short, so you are in a ground fall territory for most of the climb. Climbs outside are often taller, so after the 3rd-4th bolt on most climbs you have a bit of a leeway in terms of a fall distance, even if he pulls out extra slack to clip andyou get pulled up. Maybe next time he is climbing, you guys can try deciding which holds he would clip from, while he is still on the ground. (Ask the route-setter what he envisioned, or watch more experienced climbers to see where they are clipping from on that route). And then once he is on the route, make him stick to it. Remind him, if he starts reaching for the rope earlier, and don't give him the rope. If you are both on the same page about it before he leaves the ground-- e.i. you both agree on the reasons for doing this-- it should be good. Ultimately, in real-life situation, if a leader asks for the slack to clip, you give it. Even if you think it would be better to clip from a different hold, or it would be better not to have quite that much... I know that i have done it more then once, sketched out and clipping from a low hold. I would be pissed if my belayer started arguing with me instead of yarding the slack out when I asked for it.
Best post yet. OP: Take her advice.
GO
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jose32
Jun 3, 2011, 7:11 PM
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redlude97 wrote: Falling while clipping with slack out isn't that uncommon. .
Hmm might be common where you climb not where I climb indoor or out and not so sure that should be stated as commonplace.
Our area has walls / crags that are generally short, you're at the top by the time you get to where you could maybe afford(IMHO) a blown clip.
Personally I wouldn't risk blowing a clip below the 6th on a straight up and down body length spaced bolt line. If I don't think I can clip I generally just take the fall.
As someone else mentioned you can't really assume your belayer will be able to get much back either, especially down low. If they have a gri gri I think it's even harder to pull a bunch of slack back fast, the device will want to lock...
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sungam
Jun 3, 2011, 7:14 PM
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I have definitely never blown a clip, and I've only seen it happen 4 or 5 times. I've seen people pull up slack, then shout fuck and drop it then fall a split second later (after the belayer has reeled most of it in), but never take the full ride.
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spikeddem
Jun 3, 2011, 8:01 PM
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sungam wrote: I have definitely never blown a clip, and I've only seen it happen 4 or 5 times. I've seen people pull up slack, then shout fuck and drop it then fall a split second later (after the belayer has reeled most of it in), but never take the full ride.
Another time I (technically) decked ( --I swear I'm really not that much of a mess) was when I fell mid clip. I was, like, putting the rope through the gate when I fell. I wasn't tired, I think a foot just popped. I yelled take as fast as I could, and the belayer yanked up a arms length, but they were lighter than I was and flew up (probably 8-10 feet). I didn't crater, but my feet landed on the ground. This was on the fourth (maybe?) bolt of A.W.O.L. at the Red.
It was a really good catch, actually.
Since my most recent accident, I have been in the gym taking lots of falls on purpose to re-build my confidence in the belaying system. Lately it has included falling mid-clip, but it's with my most trusted belayers, and also with a warning juuuuuuuuust a split second before I "peel off."
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sungam
Jun 3, 2011, 8:10 PM
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Yikes! Sounds like a close catch. So you're blown clips are planned falls, right?
I just remembered the closest I've come to blowing a clip, I blew it placing the draw. Strangely it seems that having pre-hung draws would have made things worse... My god, they really are the devil!
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shockabuku
Jun 3, 2011, 8:11 PM
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redlude97 wrote: j_ung wrote: redlude97 wrote: Why does clipping high vs. clipping low make a difference? Clip from the best stance possible. Hasn't this already been hashed out that the difference is minimal in either case in terms of fall distance? I don't that this particular issue has been hashed out at all. If it has, it sounds like people came to the wrong conclusion—it can make all the difference between hitting something and not hitting something. I agree with your other point wholeheartedly, though. The safest clipping stance is the one from which you're least likely to fall. Sorry you are right I should have clarified my point. If you aren't going to deck or hit a ledge, the fall distance is the same when clipping high or at the waist. You do end up lower when clipping high though, but the force is actually lower.
You're not talking about falling during the clip, correct?
If you attempt to clip from a lower stance (provided you're still below the bolt) you will fall farther if you blow the clip.
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