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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2003, 6:41 PM
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If you can't figure out the rope solo system on your own, you probably don't have enough working experience with rope climbing with a partner. With time and experience, you should start understand rope soloing on your own. It's just a natural progression of understanding climbing systems.
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dsafanda
Jan 2, 2003, 7:11 PM
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Yes and no...I think.
The first time I did it I just tinkered around on an out of the way route and things went smoothly enough. Since then I've discovered that everyone has a slightly different method when it comes to the details. You can learn some things by asking questions here and there.
Here's a good realted thread from ST.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=13229&f=25&b=0
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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2003, 7:28 PM
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I agree with you.. like you said you should defineltly know the basics.
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holdplease2
Jan 2, 2003, 7:30 PM
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I agree...with both of you.
After climbing (trad & sport leading) for a couple of years, I came up with a way to rope solo, (TR, and Aid, single pitch for practice so far) on my own. I then read alot and asked questions just to make sure.
You can tell posts that some folks "just don't get it at all." Definately these people would benefit from waiting until the activity is much more intuitive to them
However, even folks who "get it" well enough to do it successfully can really benefit from other people's tips.
In fact, even those who pretty much get it should not try until at least double-checking their system with others with more experience via this web site, or preferably, in person.
I have been unlucky enough to receive BAD ADVICE from a gear shop (of course) on aid-solo systems and ger but LUCKY ENOUGH to run into a kind climber (smithclimber) who noticed the issue and helped me correct it.
Always double check your systems with experienced people, but if you can't figure out the vast majority of the necessary steps for any climbing activity ON YOUR OWN, then wait until you can.
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climbhigher
Jan 2, 2003, 7:38 PM
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Yeah I always believe in the "Progression of Learning" and evolving as a climber. It's a very cool way to learn how to climb. How did the first climbers learn anyways????
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timpanogos
Jan 2, 2003, 11:36 PM
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Well, since this thread is obviously spawned by my other posts, I would like to respond to this one.
Sure, I’ve read/heard the many stories of how the old timers got into aid (showed up in the valley and brute force toasted their way up on a wing and a prayer, epics, bailing etc.). I’ve done enough of the “School of Hard Knocks” educational methods of learning things to realize that there just might be a “Better Way”.
This aid forum, and RC.com for the most part – is a part of that better way – it represents many man-years of experience. “Don't rope solo!!!!! If you can't figure it out on your own.” Are you kidding me? That’s got to be one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever heard.
I have a tendency to over-analyze things – especially when my life depends on it, for example see Cams, a possible mix. By spending hours of carefully searching, studying and asking lots of questions I have been able to assemble a b*tching trad rack – there is not a piece of gear on it that I regret (via trail and error) having bought. There is not a piece of unintentional redundant gear. It is a great foundation for an aiding System. It’s just part of my nature (and likely the part that attracts me to aid) that I will continue to over-analyze every part of my growing aid system.
I have done the same type of over-analysis of trad techniques (anchors, rappelling, self-rescue, technique etc). H*ll no, I’m not going to go out and trail/error learn this stuff, – I’m going to tap into the many man years of others experience and pick a safe and efficient system that makes sense – and yes, I’m going to ask lots and lots of questions before I even hit the rock.
This has already led me to soloing my first two ever aid attempts (with out tagging) based on hours of studying PTPP’s various posts and then receiving the answers from this post. I’ve never seen this done, and yet confidently and safely did it.
I can now ask a few more questions and obtain/setup the needed gear on my b*tching soon to be full clean aid rack, to utilize the Ask Dr. Piton ....... about the Continuous Loop Method with Solo Tagging..
I’ve never seen it done, but will soon be on the some local practice routes, continuous looping away! – Same goes for rope re-belaying, Far-end hauling, 2:1 ratchets, 4:1 lower-out, Pig ridding – h*ll I did not even know what any of this meant a few months ago!
On second thought, maybe you were not referring to me, as I have figured this stuff out on my own (and likely in record time, and most efficient gear purchases) Of course with the help of our virtual reality wall doctor and many others here at RC.COM – My special heart felt thanks goes out to each and every one of you!!
Chad
buggered links
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-02 15:38 ]
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bigwalling
Jan 2, 2003, 11:50 PM
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Chad, keep at the soloing thing. It isn't that hard at all. It is quite simple once you get it down.
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timpanogos
Jan 3, 2003, 12:15 AM
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Climbhigher
BTW -
In one of the threads referenced above, you said:
"Holy $#!&!!! If you cant figure out rope soloing on you own you should not being doing it!!!! The simplist way to rope solo is with two clove hitchs and two locking biners. When i say simplist, i mean using the less gear possible. And the least complicated gear. I am a minimalist what can i say!!! But i do use a silent partner when free climbing solo."
I have never see this done either, but don't need to to know that it is clearly not the Better Way for AID solo. If nothing else, your method is more dangerous, as the silent partner is known to fail on inverted falls - which are very high possibility falls. If you have ever "high stepped" you would gladly grab that grigri.
Anybody reading this thread should realize that the refered to thread deals with a much more complex SYSTEM of gear and techniques that cover not only the self-belay while leading, but tagging, rappelling, cleaning, far-end hauling etc.
This is NOT a simple subject - don't be fooled - start reading/analyzing it out.
Chad
retraction - based on following posts - I was wrong on the solo partner. Having glanced over many threads on solo free and TR soloing (of which I am not interested in)I have not studied any of these methods out, and so should have keep quite on the subject. It does appear, watching much closer on solo aid - that the grigri is the way to go.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2003-01-02 19:59 ]
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twrock
Jan 3, 2003, 1:00 AM
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Quote:your method is more dangerous, as the silent partner is known to fail on inverted falls
Chad, the Silent Partner will catch an inverted fall. I believe you are thinking of the Soloist, which will not.
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climbhigher
Jan 3, 2003, 1:04 AM
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I am not saying it's simple!!!! That's way you should have tons of experience under your belt before you start rope soloing. I agree practice and practice. The gri gri has only been around since the mid 90's and the silent partner later then that. And i defenitly don't trust anything i cant see inside of!!! I love GREAR HEADS!! Plus, I laugh when people try to climb El cap before they even have done lots of mulitpitch free climbing. Set yourself up for sucesses and get the experience!!!! I have been lucky to have great partners, and been fortunate enough to be 5 for 5 on walls. I will tell you when that big epic comes and i get blowen off the wall and have to bail. I am sure it will come. knock on wood it doesn't. That's my .1 cents worth. CHEERS!!! Chris
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iamthewallress
Jan 3, 2003, 1:19 AM
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It's hard to understand all the solo systems without actually trying them. It's also hard to get very far off the ground when you do it the wrong way. So I don't think heading out with minimal experience is necessarily a huge problem if you've done some homework have a little judgement too.
My first aid solo...Carried two loads of stuff up to the Prow, speant an obscene amount of time on the trail just trying to find my way over to it, got snail eye (or whatever we girls get), and only did one pitch. But I met 6 awesome people on the trail that day, including my boyfriend the a woman who I consider to be a true climbing Budha, and learned more from my screw ups than I ever did on any of my 'sucessful' climb.
Granted, a few of these bails later and I was really needing a 'success', but that happened too when I was ready.
[ This Message was edited by: iamthewallress on 2003-01-02 17:20 ]
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epic_ed
Jan 3, 2003, 1:35 AM
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'Sup, Melissa! Good to see you checking in. "Snail eye"? Freakin' hilarious...
I think trying to solo without a strong climbing systems background earned from some time spent doing multi-pitch trad or similar would be very ambitious. That said, I don't think Timp is new to the game at all. The systems ARE complicated and that's the reason for so many questions. To me, the questions have been well thought out and judging from his response, he seems to get it. He certainly doesn't seem to be flying willy-nilly into the abyss. There's more than one method for solo aiding, multiple solo devices, and it's perfectly legit to ask questions about "why this" or "how is X better than Y?"
Ed
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climbhigher
Jan 3, 2003, 1:41 AM
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Hey Iamthewallruss. Actaully the first two times i tried to ropesolo aid something i had some Huge epics. It took me 8 hours to get 3 pitches off the ground.....I got worked!!!! And I didn't feel like I should not have been up there. I can definitly relate. It's funny when i used a modified gri gri i pulled up 40 feet of slack out of my system. I was like where in the hell is all this rope coming from??? I was looking at at 80 foot plus whipper (that's if all my pieces held) and i didn't even know it. CHEERS
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timpanogos
Jan 3, 2003, 6:10 AM
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Chris,
Good point on "not being able to see inside" damn you had to say that - now I'll always wonder - what is inside - Have to just plan on regular grigri retirement to dedicated gym/tr climbing at regular intervals.
I also posted a retraction in the above post incase you just skip to the bottom.
The first time the grigri slack problem was brought to my attention was just the other nigh as I first looked at PTPP’s new index – somehow I had never read the “Rebelaying your solo lead rope with prusiks” threads. – I got this sick feeling, realizing that I was oblivious to this fact when I was soloing – thank goodness I was on a single pitch 35 meter practice route and being paranoid, keep a very short backup length – did not experience this problem. – The suggested six 2’ prusiks immediately went on my list (the jugging issues alone benefit of this was sure an eye opener – one of those “damn that’s a good idea”, type of moments).
The following has been my practical progression into aid so far:
1. Desire to try it.
2. Study up on aiders and how to move up on them – buy some gear.
3. Realization that I need to practice this on some local free routes, and that I will be spending hours doing this. Who can I sucker into being a belay slave for hours on end while I practice?
4. After reading about it being almost standard practice for cavers to solo because of their belayers being unable to see what is going on and falling asleep in the dark – I come to the conclusion (very possibly an erroneous one) that it might actually be safer to solo myself during these practice sessions, and I can go at will to practice (no belay slave needed)
5. Off to some serious solo study – and don’t forget the buy some more gear part.
6. First practice route is a 5.12 bolt ladder – won’t have to worry about gear placements and can focus on movement and basic grigri/backup knot solo.
7. Ok, so it’s missing bolts and requires hook moves/rivet hanger gear – harder than I thought for first time out, I bail half way up – and of course – need more gear. Dang, all I wanted to do was try out some aiders.
8. I think to myself, the 5.10c finger crack next to the ladder face looks easy enough; it will not require any specialty gear that I have never used before (hooks, rivet hangers etc.) and I can focus on high stepping the aiders – my two sets of cams, nuts and limited set of micros should get me through just fine.
9. Ok, so the crack is flaring, and much narrower than expected – I could only get a hand full of cams in the whole route, with several micro moves and a couple of funky crack change traversals – the thing just ate my nuts, which I had to heavily back clean to get to the top – clusterf**kage, wanting a more dynamic belay, a set of alien hybrids would sure be nice – yep, buy more nuts, hybrids, big wall chest harness, wall bag etc. – but hey, I did get some good high stepping experience in those damn aiders that I wanted to TRY.
10. So, now I have enough gear to TRY those aiders out real good for these two practice routes – but something bad happened - I’m beyond the try stage to the addicted, got to have more stage. Ok, what to practice – hauling, tagging, hooking, ballnutz, the whole system! Yes indeed, buy more gear.
The sad part here, is that I’m already hungering to pick up that hammer – but at this point – all I want to do is TRY some clean aid – dumb guy alert going off.
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bigwallgumbie
Jan 3, 2003, 7:11 AM
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Yup, sounds like you're doing it right.
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climbhigher
Jan 3, 2003, 7:54 AM
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PETE makes a very good point!! Well rope soloing you are never tied into the rope...That always bothered me to. but alas, you are tied into the rope if you use two clove hitches. LOL and a back up knot. WoW!!! I guess you can be tied into the rope while rope soloing. But it still bothers me because you gotta untie from the lead line to rappel. I guess that's why they say soloing is twice as dangerous and 3 times the work and 4 times more scarier. Go figure. Cant wait to make it back to the valley and flail up another wall. oh yeah, i was kind of playing devils advocate when posting this Thread.
[ This Message was edited by: climbhigher on 2003-01-03 00:05 ]
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