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ACLSRN
Jun 14, 2011, 10:33 PM
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MS1
Jun 14, 2011, 11:50 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: Hi, It's been about 20 yrs since I climbed - having learned initially from Don Mellor himself. My question is this....'back in the day' when I climbed we'd see many top rope-ers tying a Fig. 8 and clipping it into their harness instead of tying in directly with a locking carabiner. Question IS - is this STILL being done and if so - is it really a safe method?
Almost everyone ties in directly to their hardpoints with no carabiners involved. I've never seen it done the other way except in one very peculiar gym. It adds an extra point of failure and extra complication to your tie-in.
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ACLSRN
Jun 15, 2011, 12:01 AM
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OK thanks....I saw a lot of that in the Gunks years ago and I know Don Mellor sure didn't teach us THAT!
When I say guys doing this - they were doing short top rope routes less than 75 feet - so their reasoning was "If we tie in at the end of a 60 meter rope we're never gonna get to end end of that rope if the climber were to fall, etc from a 50 ft route.
However, I just was taught that it was 'bad practice' to get into the bait of doing - tho I am sure rock gyms feel that it's far faster for belayers to change out and/or newbies trying Fig 8's wrong, etc.
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justanotherclimber
Jun 15, 2011, 12:38 AM
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yes, its still done. and yes, its safe- to a point. is it the safest method- no.
if i were going to clip in to TR often, i'd invest in a steel locking carabiner for the job. the increased strength would be worth it, imho.
one particular case of clipping in vs tying in that is safer is a TR that needs two ropes tied together. in this case, you want the knot at the anchor and then clip in where the rope touches the ground. this prevents the belayer from having to pass the knot while the climber is climbing. other than this scenario, though, i wouldnt recommend it as a matter of course.
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ACLSRN
Jun 15, 2011, 1:11 AM
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What about 2 opposing HMS locking 'biners instead of 1 steel of that's all you had?
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clc
Jun 15, 2011, 4:30 AM
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ACLSRN wrote: What about 2 opposing HMS locking 'biners instead of 1 steel of that's all you had?
Thats what the petzl website shows. A well trusted company.
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justanotherclimber
Jun 15, 2011, 5:30 AM
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clc wrote: ACLSRN wrote: What about 2 opposing HMS locking 'biners instead of 1 steel of that's all you had? Thats what the petzl website shows. A well trusted company.
sure, thats fine. the only reason i would go with steel is the much higher cross load strength it has. again, this is only if i chose to do this on a regular basis.
i would much prefer tying in to clipping in.
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ACLSRN
Jun 15, 2011, 6:15 AM
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OK thanks......
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squierbypetzl
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Jun 15, 2011, 7:15 AM
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justanotherclimber wrote: one particular case of clipping in vs tying in that is safer is a TR that needs two ropes tied together. in this case, you want the knot at the anchor and then clip in where the rope touches the ground. this prevents the belayer from having to pass the knot while the climber is climbing. other than this scenario, though, i wouldnt recommend it as a matter of course.
I'm trying to picture this but I don't quite understand it. Could you elaborate please? Single pitch TR, two ropes joined to make a 2x length rope, knot is at the anchor, belayer is on the strand of the rope with the knot (relative to the anchor). Is that correct?
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justanotherclimber
Jun 15, 2011, 3:33 PM
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yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor.
if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying.
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taydude
Jun 15, 2011, 4:29 PM
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justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying.
You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting...
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jomagam
Jun 15, 2011, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting
Seconding a pitch ?
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olderic
Jun 15, 2011, 4:50 PM
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As as typical on RC.com we have two more or less disjoint topics in the same thread:
1. The merits of attaching harness<>biner(s)<>rope - no one has mentioned belay loop vs. rope tie in points yet - but they will.
2. Tying in (using a biner or fancy knot - which also hasn't been brought up yet) at some mid way point on the rope - useful when T-ing with joined ropes.
Can we get a 3rd topic going - should a helmet be worn?
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edge
Jun 15, 2011, 4:52 PM
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taydude wrote: justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying. You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting...
I believe what he is talking about is the following (example):
a) 125' high route.
b) two 175' ropes.
c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.)
Pull knot to anchors.
d) Belayer grabs one strand and threads belay device where the rope hits the ground.
e) Climber ties a figure eight on a bight where the opposite side of the rope hits the ground and clips in. Excess rope left dangling.
f) When the knot hits the belayer, the climber is at the anchors.
Of course this is a perfect world scenario that doesn't factor in the X-factor or Murphys Law, and there would be hella rope stretch unless static ropes are used. The excess rope could get in the way of your footwork, or worse, hang up below you. Personally, I hate tying in with just a biner or even two and prefer a good knot.
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TarHeelEMT
Jun 15, 2011, 5:24 PM
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edge wrote: taydude wrote: justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying. You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting... I believe what he is talking about is the following (example): a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. d) Belayer grabs one strand and threads belay device where the rope hits the ground. e) Climber ties a figure eight on a bight where the opposite side of the rope hits the ground and clips in. Excess rope left dangling. f) When the knot hits the belayer, the climber is at the anchors. Of course this is a perfect world scenario that doesn't factor in the X-factor or Murphys Law, and there would be hella rope stretch unless static ropes are used. The excess rope could get in the way of your footwork, or worse, hang up below you. Personally, I hate tying in with just a biner or even two and prefer a good knot.
That's my understanding as well. It's a bit scary that this worked its way into a simple question on the Beginners' forum.
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edge
Jun 15, 2011, 5:26 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: edge wrote: taydude wrote: justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying. You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting... I believe what he is talking about is the following (example): a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. d) Belayer grabs one strand and threads belay device where the rope hits the ground. e) Climber ties a figure eight on a bight where the opposite side of the rope hits the ground and clips in. Excess rope left dangling. f) When the knot hits the belayer, the climber is at the anchors. Of course this is a perfect world scenario that doesn't factor in the X-factor or Murphys Law, and there would be hella rope stretch unless static ropes are used. The excess rope could get in the way of your footwork, or worse, hang up below you. Personally, I hate tying in with just a biner or even two and prefer a good knot. That's my understanding as well. It's a bit scary that this worked its way into a simple question on the Beginners' forum.
90% of the responses in the Beginners Forum are scary.
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TarHeelEMT
Jun 15, 2011, 5:32 PM
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ACLSRN wrote: When I say guys doing this - they were doing short top rope routes less than 75 feet - so their reasoning was "If we tie in at the end of a 60 meter rope we're never gonna get to end end of that rope if the climber were to fall, etc from a 50 ft route.
This is the post that is scaring me more than any.
Why would you not be able to catch a climber tied into the end of the rope falling from a 50ft route?
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2011, 6:07 PM
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edge wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: edge wrote: taydude wrote: justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying. You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting... I believe what he is talking about is the following (example): a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. d) Belayer grabs one strand and threads belay device where the rope hits the ground. e) Climber ties a figure eight on a bight where the opposite side of the rope hits the ground and clips in. Excess rope left dangling. f) When the knot hits the belayer, the climber is at the anchors. Of course this is a perfect world scenario that doesn't factor in the X-factor or Murphys Law, and there would be hella rope stretch unless static ropes are used. The excess rope could get in the way of your footwork, or worse, hang up below you. Personally, I hate tying in with just a biner or even two and prefer a good knot. That's my understanding as well. It's a bit scary that this worked its way into a simple question on the Beginners' forum. 90% of the responses in the Beginners Forum are scary.
How did the rope get to the anchor ?
Someone climb up first with a second rope tied to their haul loop?
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 15, 2011, 6:09 PM
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You've been on this site for 6 years and you're seriously asking, "How'd the rope get up there?"
Josh
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redlude97
Jun 15, 2011, 6:12 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: edge wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: edge wrote: taydude wrote: justanotherclimber wrote: yup. that way when the knot reaches the ground, the climber should be at the anchor. if the climber ties in at the end, the knot may be 20-30' below the anchor, forcing the belayer to pass the knot (or walk really far back) to continue belaying. You make NO sense. Clipping in still requires the exact same knot as tying in direct. Since when does a single knot take 20-30' of rope? Also why are you top roping 200' climbs? The rope stretch must be quite exciting... I believe what he is talking about is the following (example): a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. d) Belayer grabs one strand and threads belay device where the rope hits the ground. e) Climber ties a figure eight on a bight where the opposite side of the rope hits the ground and clips in. Excess rope left dangling. f) When the knot hits the belayer, the climber is at the anchors. Of course this is a perfect world scenario that doesn't factor in the X-factor or Murphys Law, and there would be hella rope stretch unless static ropes are used. The excess rope could get in the way of your footwork, or worse, hang up below you. Personally, I hate tying in with just a biner or even two and prefer a good knot. That's my understanding as well. It's a bit scary that this worked its way into a simple question on the Beginners' forum. 90% of the responses in the Beginners Forum are scary. How did the rope get to the anchor ? Someone climb up first with a second rope tied to their haul loop?
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2011, 6:23 PM
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redlude97 wrote: I hope I didn't get trolled, but you do not bring the second rope with you, you tie it to the end of the lead rope
We both got trolled.
In reply to: a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. |
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edge
Jun 15, 2011, 7:13 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: I hope I didn't get trolled, but you do not bring the second rope with you, you tie it to the end of the lead rope We both got trolled. In reply to: a) you climb to the anchors on a 125' high route. Lead it, rap to it, shoot a string on an arrow through it, whatever. b) You have two 175' ropes. Maybe you lead on one and trailed the other; maybe you rapped in; maybe you lead on one, tied in, pulled the rope through the pro, lowered it and pulled up the second; whatever... c) Tie ropes together (whole separate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. Rap to the ground, or lower creatively, or climb up and walk around, again, whatever.
How is that a troll? All I was trying to do was explain a vague post by someone else with possible scenarios
This would work as described, but not something I would necessarily advocate. Personally, once something gets longer than a half a ropelength, then I might lead it or follow it, but I choose not to top rope it, and certainly not with a locking biner set-up.
(This post was edited by edge on Jun 15, 2011, 7:19 PM)
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2011, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors.
It doesn't explain how the rope gets to the anchor in the first place. I was compelled to ask the age old "how did the rope get up there", but the humor was lost. Snowball effect from there.
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edge
Jun 15, 2011, 7:42 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: In reply to: a) 125' high route. b) two 175' ropes. c) Tie ropes together (whole seperate thread.) Pull knot to anchors. It doesn't explain how the rope gets to the anchor in the first place. I was compelled to ask the age old "how did the rope get up there", but the humor was lost. Snowball effect from there.
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