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angeleyes
Jun 16, 2011, 12:18 AM
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Just curious what method most of you like to use when lead belaying, brake hand palm up or palm down? By palm up / palm down I'm referring to the two most common ways people belay.
The older brake hand palm up method that lifts the rope to the guide hand to grasp before sliding the brake hand back down when taking slack(Same hand motion as you'd do a hip belay, I've heard it called jokingly the slippery pinch).
Or the palm down method often taught these days, where you grasp the brake strand below the brake hand, before sliding it up when taking slack. I see it especially used for top roping (I've heard it called brake under slide).
Just curious because I was originally taught the palm up way, later switched to the palm down way, but am considering going back to palm up for lead belaying. The main thing I like about palm up is it seems a lot more natural to quickly feed slack especially when the leader's clipping. With the palm down method it's hard to yard out slack as quickly. I notice there seem to be a lot more experienced belayers using palm up for lead.
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jt512
Jun 16, 2011, 12:26 AM
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angeleyes wrote: Just curious what method most of you like to use when lead belaying, brake hand palm up or palm down? By palm up / palm down I'm referring to the two most common ways people belay. The older brake hand palm up method that lifts the rope to the guide hand to grasp before sliding the brake hand back down when taking slack(Same hand motion as you'd do a hip belay, I've heard it called jokingly the slippery pinch). Or the palm down method often taught these days, where you grasp the brake strand below the brake hand, before sliding it up when taking slack. I see it especially used for top roping (I've heard it called brake under slide). Just curious because I was originally taught the palm up way, later switched to the palm down way, but am considering going back to palm up for lead belaying. The main thing I like about palm up is it seems a lot more natural to quickly feed slack especially when the leader's clipping. With the palm down method it's hard to yard out slack as quickly. I notice there seem to be a lot more experienced belayers using palm up for lead.
Palm up. It's faster and more flexible.
Jay
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acorneau
Jun 16, 2011, 12:32 AM
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[edit to remove quote]
Roughly: Palm down.
Resting position: Right hand (break hand) grips the rope (thumb closer to belay device) but rests down beside my thigh. Left hand (guide hand) holds the rope just above the belay device, palm up.
As the leader moves up/away I feed rope out in a "poke with a stick" motion then both hands reset to the resting position.
Simple, effective, and easy to master.
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jun 16, 2011, 12:45 AM)
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billcoe_
Jun 16, 2011, 3:59 AM
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If you are talking with an ATC, Down.
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csproul
Jun 16, 2011, 12:22 PM
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Palm up for lead belaying. Palm down while TR belaying.
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edge
Jun 16, 2011, 1:07 PM
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Bottom line is that either method is safe and appropriate if it puts you in a constant state of fall-arrest readiness.
Personally I belay as for a palm up, but my hand on the brake side is facing down. The rope runs from the belay device, over the back of my thumb, under the middle three fingers, and then up and over the back of my pinkie.
This creates a little "stiffy" of rope above my pinkie which is easy to grab with my guide hand as I slide the brake hand back down, and also gives the rope some bends which allow for an instant grab as soon as I clench my brake hand into a fist.
I have been belaying like this for decades, have caught hundreds of falls, and it works for me personally, intuitively, and safely.
I will not decline catching a belay from practitioners of either method once I have satisfied myself that they are safe.
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sungam
Jun 16, 2011, 4:09 PM
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jt512 wrote: Palm up. It's faster and more flexible. Jay
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Diphthong
Jun 16, 2011, 4:21 PM
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jt512 wrote: angeleyes wrote: Just curious what method most of you like to use when lead belaying, brake hand palm up or palm down? By palm up / palm down I'm referring to the two most common ways people belay. The older brake hand palm up method that lifts the rope to the guide hand to grasp before sliding the brake hand back down when taking slack(Same hand motion as you'd do a hip belay, I've heard it called jokingly the slippery pinch). Or the palm down method often taught these days, where you grasp the brake strand below the brake hand, before sliding it up when taking slack. I see it especially used for top roping (I've heard it called brake under slide). Just curious because I was originally taught the palm up way, later switched to the palm down way, but am considering going back to palm up for lead belaying. The main thing I like about palm up is it seems a lot more natural to quickly feed slack especially when the leader's clipping. With the palm down method it's hard to yard out slack as quickly. I notice there seem to be a lot more experienced belayers using palm up for lead. Palm up. It's faster and more flexible. Jay
Your wrong.
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soNVclimbing
Jun 16, 2011, 4:26 PM
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no, your wrong
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Diphthong
Jun 16, 2011, 4:27 PM
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soNVclimbing wrote: no, your wrong
How so?
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csproul
Jun 16, 2011, 4:27 PM
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soNVclimbing wrote: no, your wrong
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caughtinside
Jun 16, 2011, 4:28 PM
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Diphthong wrote: soNVclimbing wrote: no, your wrong How so?
jt just pulled your belay card, looser!
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mikeclimbingdude
Jun 16, 2011, 4:35 PM
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gri-gri and gloves takes all tha guess work away.
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healyje
Jun 16, 2011, 4:40 PM
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mikeclimbingdude wrote: gri-gri and gloves takes all tha guess work away.
True, with the gloves on you're much less likely to burn your hands when you drop someone.
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epoch
Moderator
Jun 16, 2011, 4:51 PM
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Back to the OP, are we talking about using a Gri-Gri, a Cinch, or a Tube device.
I belay differently with each one.
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redlude97
Jun 16, 2011, 4:56 PM
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I'm pretty sure my palm has to face down to hold the cam on my gri gri down so "palm down"
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iknowfear
Jun 16, 2011, 5:07 PM
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sungam wrote: jt512 wrote: Palm up. It's faster and more flexible. Jay Palm up feels awkward and clumsy to me, I only ever belay palm down.
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cracklover
Jun 16, 2011, 5:54 PM
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angeleyes wrote: Just curious what method most of you like to use when lead belaying, brake hand palm up or palm down? By palm up / palm down I'm referring to the two most common ways people belay. The older brake hand palm up method that lifts the rope to the guide hand to grasp before sliding the brake hand back down when taking slack(Same hand motion as you'd do a hip belay, I've heard it called jokingly the slippery pinch). Or the palm down method often taught these days, where you grasp the brake strand below the brake hand, before sliding it up when taking slack. I see it especially used for top roping (I've heard it called brake under slide). Just curious because I was originally taught the palm up way, later switched to the palm down way, but am considering going back to palm up for lead belaying. The main thing I like about palm up is it seems a lot more natural to quickly feed slack especially when the leader's clipping. With the palm down method it's hard to yard out slack as quickly. I notice there seem to be a lot more experienced belayers using palm up for lead.
It Depends ®
GO
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kennoyce
Jun 16, 2011, 9:36 PM
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csproul wrote: Palm up for lead belaying. Palm down while TR belaying.
I'm just the oposite, palm down for lead, palm up for tr. This just goes to show that either method is safe as long as you know what you are doing. It just comes down to personal preference.
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sspssp
Jun 16, 2011, 9:43 PM
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angeleyes wrote: The older brake hand palm up method Or the palm down method often taught these days I notice there seem to be a lot more experienced belayers using palm up for lead.
Would that be because the more experienced belayers were taught longer ago when everyone was palm up?
I'm old school, so I'm palm up and have no desire to change a 20+ year habbit. If I was teaching a novice, I would teach palm down.
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jmeizis
Jun 16, 2011, 11:18 PM
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Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category.
The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way.
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Diphthong
Jun 16, 2011, 11:24 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way.
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jt512
Jun 16, 2011, 11:32 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way.
Nice try. Fact is, most people who think they can belay as proficiently palms down as palms up don't really know what proficient belaying is. Additionally, I suspect that you can apply more braking force with the rope locked off palms up than palms down, because palms up the rope makes an extra bend coming out of your hand, rather than running straight through it. I have never heard of a case when the rope was pried out of the belayer's brake hand belaying palms up, although I have heard plenty of know-it-alls like you claim that it was a risk.
I don't know why you keep acting like you actually know anything. You're not fooling anyone, including, most likely, your unfortunate students.
Jay
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healyje
Jun 17, 2011, 12:14 AM
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jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way.
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johnwesely
Jun 17, 2011, 1:41 AM
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jt512 wrote: jmeizis wrote: Palm down for any belay device or style of climbing. Unless you're a gumby who doesn't understand how belay devices work or like ergonomically akward positioning of your oh so important break hand. Something I always tell beginners: "Is it easier to pull the rope out of the grip of your fingers or through the flesh of your hand?" If you have problems with palms down and can't feed the rope quickly or it feels akward, it's probably because you're in that gumby category. The only time anyone should have there palm up is when using a munter or a hip belay. That being said there are many people capable of catching falls palms up. It's not wrong, just not the best way. Nice try. Fact is, most people who think they can belay as proficiently palms down as palms up don't really know what proficient belaying is. Additionally, I suspect that you can apply more braking force with the rope locked off palms up than palms down, because palms up the rope makes an extra bend coming out of your hand, rather than running straight through it. I have never heard of a case when the rope was pried out of the belayer's brake hand belaying palms up, although I have heard plenty of know-it-alls like you claim that it was a risk. I don't know why you keep acting like you actually know anything. You're not fooling anyone, including, most likely, your unfortunate students. Jay
FWIW, I used to belay palms up, and whenever I was holding a climber for more than a minute, I would break with my guide hand and switch to palms down. Whether or not palms down has more holding power, it sure feels easier. I don't really see how belaying palms up would make it easier to feed out slack.
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