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jbrown2
Jun 20, 2011, 6:12 AM
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So a common occurrence with fixed draws on sport routs is that the rope end biner gets sharp from being worn down by the rope. I have seen video and discussion on the issue on this and other sights including Black Diamond. They have done extensive research about sharp biners cutting and sheathing ropes.
What I am wondering is how strong are the biners. Say you are climbing a rout with fixed draws. You get to a draw that is way sharp. Can you just flip it so the sharp end is now the bolt end.
How strong is a half way (1/4, 3/4) worn through biner, At what point can it no longer hold body weight or a fall? (lets assume one of those fancy Black Diamond key locks and or a Matolius wire gate)
Seems like the I beam biners would be dangerous sooner.
Very interested on hearing this discussion. Please. I know if you don't think it is safe don't use it. But i want facts and figures.
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Tjin
Jun 20, 2011, 9:51 AM
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the bolt side of the draw can have nicks from the steel bolts (depending on the type of bolt hanger used) and usually have straight gates or are quick links for permanent draws.
BD has tested a few worn models in their lab.
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jbrown2
Jun 20, 2011, 5:20 PM
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To clarify i am not interested in the strength of the bolt side biner. I am interested in the strength of the worn down rope side biner.
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rtwilli4
Jun 20, 2011, 5:43 PM
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You want to rotate the rope end biner, correct?
The short answer is that this is not a solution to the grooved out perma-draw problem. And if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
The longer answer:
If the fixed draw is of any quality, you probably won't be able to rotate the biner on lead, since the runner should be snug around the rope end biner. I can't speak for chains but I doubt you'll be able to easily rotate biners on those either.
On top of that, when you rotate the biners and then lower off, you're causing the next person to have to clip an upside down biner or rotate it back. Not cool.
If you're planning on going in direct and rotating the biners while you're sussing out the moves then you might as well just place your own biner/draw.
Finally, by rotating the biner you could be setting it up to get crossloaded, depending on what type of runner is in place. The groove weekens the part of the biner that is already susceptible to breaking when the nose of the biner is loaded. If you fall on a grooved biner and the forces are exerted on the spine it's probably not going to break. Move that load closer to the nose and you'll quickly approach forces that will snap it off.
Best to just place your own draws or help solve the problem by purchasing a perma-draw from CAMP that has a steel biner.
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olderic
Jun 20, 2011, 6:14 PM
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He's not talking about rotating the biner - hes talking about rotating the draw - swapping ends - bolt biner <->rope biner.
That's obvious. The cons against that - nicks in the original bolt biner, different style biners, captive vs. loose end of draw - have all been mentioned. Is it really worth it for ~$10?
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jbrown2
Jun 20, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Not flipping biner. Rope end to bolt end and bolt end to rope end
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JAB
Jun 20, 2011, 6:41 PM
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I know BD did some tests on worn out shutters, and they were just as strong as normal (due to the rope orienting itself closer to the spine or the biner), but it's not exactly the same situation. Anyway, if you do climb up to a very sharp carabiner, I'm sure its safer to switch than not switching biners.
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redlude97
Jun 20, 2011, 6:59 PM
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One thing to keep in mind is that BD's conclusion that worn anchors were "stronger" was that is oriented the rope close to the spine. This will not alway be the case with a draw, and if you were to flip the biner and took a fall with the bolt outside of the groove you could potentially lever the weak groove portion, or if the hanger were in the groove and the fall occurred at an angle not perfect straight down from the bolt you could possibly wedge the groove in the biner open. Too many unknowns to consider flipping the draw a safer bet until further testing is done
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umeroz7
Jun 20, 2011, 7:24 PM
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I am not sure about the strength but I core shot my rope a few years back on a grooved out perma-draw. scary and expensive.
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moose_droppings
Jun 20, 2011, 7:40 PM
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While I agree with your response, for some reason he's asking specifically for the strengths of biners that are partially worn through. I don't know of tests that show the amount of force a biner breaks at when partly worn through. He also asked what kind of body weight or falls they would hold. Why?
Personally, I don't need any tests to tell me not to rely to any degree on worn biners to trust my life with.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jun 20, 2011, 7:40 PM)
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shimanilami
Jun 20, 2011, 8:03 PM
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You've got to be one cheap mofo - or some sort of demented thrill-seeker - to even ask this question. If the 'biner is worn, it should be retired and replaced. If you can't afford to provide a 'biner of your own, then ask someone else to help out. I don't know anybody who would hesitate to pony up a few bucks to avoid a potentially dangerous situation.
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billcoe_
Jun 20, 2011, 8:26 PM
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shimanilami wrote: You've got to be one cheap mofo - or some sort of demented thrill-seeker - to even ask this question. If the 'biner is worn, it should be retired and replaced. If you can't afford to provide a 'biner of your own, then ask someone else to help out. I don't know anybody who would hesitate to pony up a few bucks to avoid a potentially dangerous situation.
F* it, flip it over, it will be fine. The deal is that ropes get cut, flipping it eliminates that issue. Or maybe Shimishami will pay for all the new draws.
Right shami? it's cheap.
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shimanilami
Jun 20, 2011, 10:54 PM
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It depends on how worn "way sharp" is. Personally, if a 'biner is sharp enough to cut a rope (i.e. worn halfway through or more), then it's worn enough to replace. To me, it's a small price to pay.
(Of course, I'm already in the habit of donating 'biners, hangers, chains, and cash for crag maintenance and development anyways; so one more 'biner is just a drop in the bucket.
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j_ung
Jun 21, 2011, 1:19 AM
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jbrown2 wrote: So a common occurrence with fixed draws on sport routs is that the rope end biner gets sharp from being worn down by the rope. I have seen video and discussion on the issue on this and other sights including Black Diamond. They have done extensive research about sharp biners cutting and sheathing ropes. What I am wondering is how strong are the biners. Say you are climbing a rout with fixed draws. You get to a draw that is way sharp. Can you just flip it so the sharp end is now the bolt end. How strong is a half way (1/4, 3/4) worn through biner, At what point can it no longer hold body weight or a fall? (lets assume one of those fancy Black Diamond key locks and or a Matolius wire gate) Seems like the I beam biners would be dangerous sooner. Very interested on hearing this discussion. Please. I know if you don't think it is safe don't use it. But i want facts and figures.
I don't have facts and figures, but I can give you a few reasons not to do it.
1. Fixed draws rarely have a 'biner on the bolt end. Typically, it's a quick link.
2. If it's not a quick link and is a 'biner, it's likely to have burs that can also cut through sheath just like a worn biner.
3. If it is a 'biner and doesn't have burrs and you flip it as described, you've just hidden the damaged 'biner inside the dogbone, and essentially made the decision for everybody else.
4. Test data will be irrelevant anyway, since there will be no consistency to the strength of grooved 'biners. See what I'm saying? If you can't quantify the depth of the groove and what that means for that particular model 'biner, you can't predict strength.
Faced with a fixed 'biner that is so grooved that falling on it is an obvious bad idea, you only have a few sane choices. Back off or replace it if that's feasible. If it's not feasible, at least spread the word. If there's a local maintenance org, tell them. It may be a bit controversial to say so, but even if you can't replace it, you should still consider removing the fixed draw.
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lena_chita
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Jun 21, 2011, 2:01 PM
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billcoe_ wrote: shimanilami wrote: You've got to be one cheap mofo - or some sort of demented thrill-seeker - to even ask this question. If the 'biner is worn, it should be retired and replaced. If you can't afford to provide a 'biner of your own, then ask someone else to help out. I don't know anybody who would hesitate to pony up a few bucks to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. . Or maybe Shimishami will pay for all the new draws. Right shami? it's cheap.
Or, as an alternative, YOU will pay for the guys new rope, after he falls and gets a core shot based on your advice, right?
Regardless of the strength level on the worn out grooved rope-end 'biner, you are substituting one problem for another, equally unpleasant. The bolt-end 'biner on a fixed draw will be usually badly nicked and burred-- and that would damage the rope in a fall, too.
On a single-pitch sport climb there is simply no excuse for this sort of behavior. If the 'biner is worn to the point that you are unwilling to take a fall on it, for the fear of your rope being cut, replace it. Period, End of story.
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dagibbs
Jun 21, 2011, 3:19 PM
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lena_chita wrote: billcoe_ wrote: shimanilami wrote: You've got to be one cheap mofo - or some sort of demented thrill-seeker - to even ask this question. If the 'biner is worn, it should be retired and replaced. If you can't afford to provide a 'biner of your own, then ask someone else to help out. I don't know anybody who would hesitate to pony up a few bucks to avoid a potentially dangerous situation. . Or maybe Shimishami will pay for all the new draws. Right shami? it's cheap. Or, as an alternative, YOU will pay for the guys new rope, after he falls and gets a core shot based on your advice, right? Regardless of the strength level on the worn out grooved rope-end 'biner, you are substituting one problem for another, equally unpleasant. The bolt-end 'biner on a fixed draw will be usually badly nicked and burred-- and that would damage the rope in a fall, too. On a single-pitch sport climb there is simply no excuse for this sort of behavior. If the 'biner is worn to the point that you are unwilling to take a fall on it, for the fear of your rope being cut, replace it. Period, End of story.
Agreed.
And, if the biner is that worn -- how long has the dogbone been hanging there, exposed to the elements (and possibly UV)? You might not see the damage as obviously, but it is still there.
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AKboulderer
Jun 25, 2011, 1:24 AM
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Not quite sure what you were asking about but couldn't you just wrap some heavy duty duct tape around the biner and wouldn't it prevent the rope from wearing it down. Look, it might sound stupid but it might work.
AKboulderer
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Colinhoglund
Jun 25, 2011, 1:48 AM
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Boulderer fail.
Clearly you have no Idea what they are talking about.
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