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enigma
Jun 22, 2011, 8:42 AM
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For those climbers who have done FA for personal, or to be known as the first climber to free a particular climb . What was your reason?
As well as climbers who have found areas in the wilderness, making it into climbers destination.
It is usually a costly, time consuming endeavor with little or no reward.
Was the effort worth the end result?
Was it to leave a part of you for other climbers to enjoy?
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dagibbs
Jun 22, 2011, 1:08 PM
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There was this little cliff near my parents cottage, and my brother-in-law and I decided we wanted to do a bit of climbing while at the cottage. So, that little cliff ended up being where we went climbing.
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sknowlton
Jun 22, 2011, 4:09 PM
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enigma wrote: For those climbers who have done FA for personal, or to be known as the first climber to free a particular climb . What was your reason? As well as climbers who have found areas in the wilderness, making it into climbers destination. It is usually a costly, time consuming endeavor with little or no reward. Was the effort worth the end result? Was it to leave a part of you for other climbers to enjoy?
No other reason than it was there and the line looked like it would be fun to climb.
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RDA
Jun 22, 2011, 4:39 PM
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Why do new routes/areas? Well, for one, i enjoyed climbing "fresh" rock, uncluttered by trash, chalk, sweat and blood. Solitude was also a special thing so climbing in and around the "scene" wasnt very attractive. BITD, thoughts of what we were "providing" really didnt enter into it until down the road. The routes and protection were dictated by the rock, not a bosch. Sport climbing became popular and that's when considerations were given to the installation of fixed pro etc etc etc. Establishing areas is a double edged sword as well. With increased traffic comes increased damage to the lands and crags, issues arise, and places do get closed. Ive put up routes, established areas and written a guide, so ive seen the results of all the above-some good , some not so good. In doing new routes two things come first and foremost, A) respect the rock, and B) respect established routes. After that it is up to you, your conscience and your will...
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crazymountaingoat
Jun 22, 2011, 5:48 PM
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I think it is a contribution to the comunity. but the reason I want to do new routes is more of looking for my own adventure. repeating routes, is repeating someone elses adventure. and like was stated before. I don't like the trashed areas where everyone goes. we nee to have some peace and quiet in the woods by ourselves onece in a while right.
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enigma
Jun 23, 2011, 1:55 AM
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crazymountaingoat wrote: I think it is a contribution to the comunity. but the reason I want to do new routes is more of looking for my own adventure. repeating routes, is repeating someone elses adventure. and like was stated before. I don't like the trashed areas where everyone goes. we nee to have some peace and quiet in the woods by ourselves onece in a while right.
Very true!
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potreroed
Jun 23, 2011, 3:27 AM
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Some climbers, like Todd Skinner, try to put up routes that are so difficult that nobody else can climb them. Others, like Jim Beyer, put up A5 scarefests that nobody wants to go near. My goal has always been to create routes that can be climbed every day by average warriors. And yes, all the work has been well worth it.
(This post was edited by potreroed on Jun 23, 2011, 4:22 AM)
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healyje
Jun 23, 2011, 8:17 AM
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First, there is a huge distinction between trad and sport FAs typically with differing sets of motivations.
enigma wrote: crazymountaingoat wrote: I think it is a contribution to the comunity. but the reason I want to do new routes is more of looking for my own adventure. repeating routes, is repeating someone elses adventure. and like was stated before. I don't like the trashed areas where everyone goes. we nee to have some peace and quiet in the woods by ourselves onece in a while right. Very true!
potreroed wrote: Some climbers, like Todd Skinner, try to put up routes that are so difficult that nobody else can climb them. Others, like Jim Beyer, put up A5 scarefests that nobody wants to go near. My goal has always been to create routes that can be climbed every day by average warriors. And yes, all the work has been well worth it.
And other climbers like myself put up [trad] routes solely because we get obsessed with a line and no other reason. In my case I climb for no one but myself and could care less if anyone else ever climbs my FAs. Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect.
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rtwilli4
Jun 23, 2011, 11:51 AM
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Many reasons. I have only done a few first ascents, some bolted on rappel, some bolted on lead, some protected by all natural gear.
The first one was an obvious line that happened to fall pretty close to an anchor from another climb. From the anchor I traversed a little, placed a few pieces to act as a directional anchor and TRed the line to make sure the rock quality was good and the climbing was worth the bolts. We had to use Titanium glue in bolts so you don't just put them anywhere. In this case I was simply tired of looking up at the line and not being able to climb it. I also wanted to add another route for the area, as this seemed to be in the 6b to 6c range which falls right in the category of what most people came to this island to climb. On a crowded day, this is just one more good route for people to climb.
The second "FA" wasn't actually a first ascent at all, but a second. I knew of a beautiful corner with a crack for pro and pockets for climbing. I knew that it had been done once before, all on natural gear, and I had an idea of the grade. So basically I was just making the second ascent of a trad climb... not a first ascent at all. I wanted to make the second ascent, but the main reason I climbed it was so that we could bolt it. The gear was OK, but this was in a sport climbing area in a third world country where locals can't afford trad gear and vacationers don't bring any. The local ethic is to bolt everything, as only about 10% of the routes take gear anyway. So I did lead it, put in a few working bolts as an anchor, TRed it to make sure I put the bolts in the right place, cleaned it for HOURS, and bolted it. Again, this added a brilliant 120 foot climb to an area that people were already visiting to sport climb.
Two other routes that I call my own on that island were done more for personal reasons, but I still made sure that they were done in a way that would contribute to the area. One of the pitches I bolted linked up two historic climbs that hadn't been done in over a decade. I re-bolted those as well, creating a 450 foot 6 pitch climb that is now one of the longest routes in Thailand.
The other line I bolted was a project that would have been the hardest route I had ever sent... but I didn't send it. But that was only half the reason I bolted it... the other half was that it was in a new area that has potential for more climbing. I blazed a trail, bolted this line, created a starting point for other climbers to come and bolt their own projects.
Doing big first ascents in the mountains or traditional first ascents is not quite the same. I haven't done many, but I think those types of FAs are more for personal reasons. You climb the line because you can't stand not to. Who cares if it sucks, who cares if no one else ever climbs it, who cares if it ends up being unsafe... you climb those lines for yourself.
Some people may do FAs at traditional cragging areas to help develop the area, but for me those are about me, not anyone else.
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2011, 12:25 PM
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You couldn't be more on the mark from my perspective Healyje. I find people motivations for "FA's" rather suspect when they start using terms like community service, creating lines for the masses, etc.
If you have no knowledge of a particular route, no line drawing, no gear beata, no grade, then it is a first ascent FOR YOU! Who gives a rats ass if anyone has ever climbed it before? does it make a difference to your experience at the moment?
I seriously want to bitch slap people when I hear them say FA. It's so f***ing pretentious! What you really mean is that you were the first person to record your ascent. To assume anything else is just that..presumption.
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I_do
Jun 23, 2011, 2:37 PM
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rangerrob wrote: You couldn't be more on the mark from my perspective Healyje. I find people motivations for "FA's" rather suspect when they start using terms like community service, creating lines for the masses, etc. If you have no knowledge of a particular route, no line drawing, no gear beata, no grade, then it is a first ascent FOR YOU! Who gives a rats ass if anyone has ever climbed it before? does it make a difference to your experience at the moment? I seriously want to bitch slap people when I hear them say FA. It's so f***ing pretentious! What you really mean is that you were the first person to record your ascent. To assume anything else is just that..presumption.
Why don't you worry about your own motivations and not ed's?
I happen to have been lucky enough to have climbed in a few areas under development and had a chance to chill with some of the guys doing most of the bolting and FA's.
They do it for love of climbing, pay out of their own pocket and are happy if everyone enjoys the climbs they put up.
Bad motivation indeed.
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RDA
Jun 23, 2011, 5:13 PM
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This whole "putting up user freindly routes" thought is funny. Yes, for BOLTED sport routes, they should be user freindly. But to label some run out trad style climb as "not thinking about those who will use it after" is simply admitting one daoenst have the stones to do it as is. Several of my older routes contained run outs that were simply dictated by the rock. It is in that risk that the value of the climb lies. Those climbs are about the "head" as much -if not more so , than the body. One rises to the occasion when doing this type of route- and the accomlishment feeling when getting it done is ten fold of finally hang doggin your way up some eighty foot bolted face. When clean climbing took hold, it was about saving the rock. The roues done with that ethic in mind serve the rock and CLIMBER in a style that reflects the very essence of what climbing is about. In my climbing memories, it is these routes that stand out as the mental and physical challenges merged into an ultimate goal. So were these routes put up with others in mind?? Yes and NO. No that wasnt the foremost thought, but Yes, by saving the rock and doing a run out section without drilling, the flavor,expirience and the mental and physical aspects of said rute have been preserved FOR THE FUTURE CLIMBERS who will get on it. That INDEED was the mantra of CLEAN CLIMBING!
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areyoumydude
Jun 23, 2011, 5:38 PM
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healyje wrote: Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect.
You've got to be joking. You've done more "community service" than anyone I know.
rangerrob wrote: I seriously want to bitch slap people when I hear them say FA. It's so f***ing pretentious! What you really mean is that you were the first person to record your ascent. To assume anything else is just that..presumption.
That's a pretty retarded statement.
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caughtinside
Jun 23, 2011, 5:51 PM
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areyoumydude wrote: healyje wrote: Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect. You've got to be joking. You've done more "community service" than anyone I know. rangerrob wrote: I seriously want to bitch slap people when I hear them say FA. It's so f***ing pretentious! What you really mean is that you were the first person to record your ascent. To assume anything else is just that..presumption. That's a pretty retarded statement.
Better watch out. here comes rangern00b to bitchslap ya!
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lmorris
Jun 23, 2011, 5:53 PM
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Haven't done it yet but when I think about it, I imagine it would be like staking my flag on the moon. I know, I know... a legend in my own mind.
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climb-high
Jun 23, 2011, 6:18 PM
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Every new route, or area that I have developed was done with adventure in mind. Whether these routes never get climbed again, or are seeing ascents daily does not matter in the least to me. I climb for myself, I make these routes as safe as I think they need to be, be that with fixed anchors, bolts, cleaning loose rock. It is all done so that I can enjoy the climb as much as possible. I do hope that people will find these routes and climb them, enjoying them as much as I did, but that is never first on my mind. Its all about trying something new and pushing yourself physically and mentally.
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areyoumydude
Jun 23, 2011, 6:49 PM
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caughtinside wrote: areyoumydude wrote: healyje wrote: Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect. You've got to be joking. You've done more "community service" than anyone I know. rangerrob wrote: I seriously want to bitch slap people when I hear them say FA. It's so f***ing pretentious! What you really mean is that you were the first person to record your ascent. To assume anything else is just that..presumption. That's a pretty retarded statement. Better watch out. here comes rangern00b to bitchslap ya!
LOL I'm sure I deserve it with all my pretentious presumptions.
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healyje
Jun 23, 2011, 7:41 PM
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areyoumydude wrote: healyje wrote: Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect. You've got to be joking. You've done more "community service" than anyone I know.
There isn't a single thing I've done out at Beacon that wasn't motivated by the sole purpose of me personally getting more climbing days out there, without sport routes, and with a minimum of gov't intervention. None of it was done for 'community service' and has all been pure selfishness from a climbing perspective.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jun 23, 2011, 7:42 PM)
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areyoumydude
Jun 23, 2011, 7:59 PM
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healyje wrote: areyoumydude wrote: healyje wrote: Personally, I find the whole notion of 'community service' in climbing dubious, misplaced, and suspect. You've got to be joking. You've done more "community service" than anyone I know. There isn't a single thing I've done out at Beacon that wasn't motivated by the sole purpose of me personally getting more climbing days out there, without sport routes, and with a minimum of gov't intervention. None of it was done for 'community service' and has all been pure selfishness from a climbing perspective.
So gluing a hold on a 5.7 was for your own selfish reasons? Placing anchor bolts in the middle of pitches on classic routes, replacing anchors on routes that you never do? That was all so you could get in more climbing days? Ok, my bad I guess you are selfish.
Yer a funny guy Joe. Keep it real. Yo.
Oh and I heard that you claimed the FA of Stone Rodeo. Was that before or after it was chipped?
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healyje
Jun 23, 2011, 9:07 PM
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areyoumydude wrote: So gluing a hold on a 5.7 was for your own selfish reasons?
Opdycke's call - I told him I'd be happy to either clean it or glue it; I was completely ok either way. The fact is if I cleaned it, a lot more than just it was going to come off. He made the call, I obliged. But had he not, I would have just cleaned off the whole section for my own climbing on it.
areyoumydude wrote: Placing anchor bolts in the middle of pitches on classic routes
This was an anchor replacement for the anchor coming off the tree and that spot on the ledge previously had an anchor. Relocating it there was Opdycke's call, I again obliged. People squawked, I pulled it and relocated it behind the tree. There's always been an anchor in that general vicinity (ledge or tree) and there still is.
areyoumydude wrote: replacing anchors on routes that you never do? That was all so you could get in more climbing days? Ok, my bad I guess you are selfish.
Yep. If you want early opens or to be able to talk about eliminating or modifying the closures than you have to have standing and Beacon locals had all the standing of a flea circus by the early 2000's. To get taken seriously it was necessary to show initiative, investment, and willingness to learn about the various interests, agencies, individuals, and laws related to managing the resource.
Replacing anchors showed that vestment and in tandem with honestly monitoring the Peregrines and learning about the science and law it allowed the opportunity to actually engage the various stakeholders on some reasonable basis. Beyond that I wanted to a) climb those routes myself and not on those shit anchors b) see if it might jump start a free climbing renaissance, particularly on the south face columns which c) would give me more partner options with people like Texplorer and Shane Polizzano. Who knew it would instead kick off an aid renaissance by the new generation of locals.
areyoumydude wrote: Yer a funny guy Joe. Keep it real. Yo.
"Keeping it real" has been more of a sad bumper sticker and call to the campfire than a reality out at Beacon and Dropzone in the last couple of years.
areyoumydude wrote: Oh and I heard that you claimed the FA of Stone Rodeo. Was that before or after it was chipped?
I didn't claim anything, my partner Tangen-Foster did the FA a couple of weeks before the date listed for the FA in Olson's guide. He'd never climbed at Beacon before and it was his first time down the trail. He saw it, dropped the rope and we got on it (we had no idea it wasn't a well established climb). Hell, he hadn't even seen the south face yet. Next day I freed the stretch up left from the Pipeline anchor up to the base of Silver Crow - still need to get back up and try to finish freeing that.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jun 23, 2011, 9:25 PM)
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2011, 9:09 PM
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Dude, explain to me how that statement you quoted from me is retarded. You are assuming no one has climbed that particular section of cliff, or boulder, but you don't know that for a certainty. It may be a good guess, but it's still a guess.
Oh and by the way, I'm mentally challenged, not retarded. let's get a little PC here.
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healyje
Jun 23, 2011, 9:16 PM
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Gotta say that when I do an FA I know what the possibility of it having been climbed in the past is and look for signs that it has been. Of all the FAs I've done over the years I can only think of two where I had any suspicion it was other than exactly that. At least on the climbs I do it's pretty obvious one way or the other.
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rtwilli4
Jun 24, 2011, 1:10 PM
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At this point I think it's worth differentiating between types of First Ascent.
A true FA is done ground up using traditional gear and only fixed gear when absolutely neccessary. That is the accepted way to climb in most parts of the world and it is a style that is usually adhred to in a general sense.
The motivations behind the climbers who open routes in this style are usually pretty selfish. I don't like using the word selfish because of the negative conotations that come with it... it's OK to be selfish in climbing and it usually takes a bit of that to accomplish what you want.
Climbers head up walls in this fashion to get to the top. In recent years, doing routes "free" has become a large focus. Many times the first ascentionist go back and free all the pitches to make the First Free Ascent. Again, they do this for themselves, and not so that others will have the chance to climb the route.
Sport climbing, however, is very different. It is so different, in fact, that some people don't think we should even use the term First Ascent to denote the first time a person frees a route. I tend to agree with them.
While putting up a quality sport route takes a lot of time and well though out planning, it is nothing like starting up a wall with nothing but your gear and your partner.
Bolting a sport climb is, and must be, about creating a good line for others to climb. I don't know if it SHOULD be about others, but in today's world of gym climbers and sport climbers that don't know the difference between an expansion bolt and a button head, a route developer must think of future climbers who attemps the route. When I bolt a sport climb, I try to make it idiot-proof. You won't need a stick clip, you won't deck if you blow a clip on the second or third bolt, and I won't even bolt the route if there is potential for ledge falls.
First Ascent? Who fucking cares? Someone rapped in and cleaned, inspected, bolted. If it's a good route, then the developer is the one that should get the credit, as this is a difficult and time consuming process. Who cares who the first person to climb the route was?
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RDA
Jun 24, 2011, 2:50 PM
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you answered your own questions, the developer of a sport route is normally the FA also ...Knowing this preserves our collective history- jut like any other activity and or sport has.
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areyoumydude
Jun 24, 2011, 5:04 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Dude, explain to me how that statement you quoted from me is retarded. You are assuming no one has climbed that particular section of cliff, or boulder, but you don't know that for a certainty. It may be a good guess, but it's still a guess. Oh and by the way, I'm mentally challenged, not retarded. let's get a little PC here.
Making a blanket statement like that is ignorant. Sometimes it might not be obvious whether or not something has been climbed before, but most of the time it is pretty easy to tell if it was an FA.
If you're worried about being PC you might want to refrain from threatening to "bitch" slap others.
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