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RDouz


Jun 22, 2011, 7:49 AM
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Ropeless Aid
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Anyone work ropeless aid? I have done single pitch training of ropeless aid where I transition from anchors. I have used this to work placement and anchor building. I typically transition with three anchors. Anyone take this multi-pitch?


edge


Jun 22, 2011, 8:02 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Anyone work ropeless aid? I have done single pitch training of ropeless aid where I transition from anchors. I have used this to work placement and anchor building. I typically transition with three anchors. Anyone take this multi-pitch?

Are you talking about climbing an aid pitch by building anchors for the entire length to move up one anchor at a time without a rope?

No, I have never done that.


csproul


Jun 22, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Anyone work ropeless aid? I have done single pitch training of ropeless aid where I transition from anchors. I have used this to work placement and anchor building. I typically transition with three anchors. Anyone take this multi-pitch?
Sounds pretty silly, slow, and potentially unsafe to me. It is not that hard to solo with a safety rope when aid climbing.

There is a video of Dean Potter out there doing a ropeless speed ascent (the Nose?) in which he is aid climbing with nothing but a couple of cams attached to his aiders/daisies. He is essentially "crack jummaring" where he moves from single placement to single placement. The gear is bomber enough that he must consider this acceptably safe.


healyje


Jun 22, 2011, 9:11 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Leapfrogging three pieces of pro up a line without a rope can be done - but is not a great idea. You're talking about short, but very nasty falls onto what? Do you use an Screamer on each piece? It's one of those deals where it's cool when you get away with it, but sucks really hard when you don't. Unless you're in the as good a shape as Dean Potter and only doing it to bridge brief sections of a free solo I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a passtime.


vinnie83


Jun 22, 2011, 9:34 AM
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Re: [healyje] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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I think this was done on Zodiac by Russ Mitrovich a while back to set a new speed record. Unless you're out setting big wall speed records with Ammon McNeely you could probably make much more significant speed improvements just by getting more mileage aiding.


healyje


Jun 22, 2011, 9:42 AM
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Re: [vinnie83] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Sure, it's been done, but, really, what's the point? Again, it can be done if you get away with it, but it's going to really suck if you don't. And it's one thing Dean, Russ, or Ammon doing it and another suggesting, 'promoting', or 'exploring' the idea on the internet. In general, it's not really a viable way to do solo aid on any regular basis.


RDouz


Jun 22, 2011, 2:39 PM
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Re: [edge] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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I literally build three anchors, remove the lower then tranisition and build another. It isn't like Dean Potter because I am always attached to two anchors not single placements. When Dean (dvd viewed) transitions off bolts or a single piece of gear he only has one attachment point. My anchors are like belay anchors with three solids pieces. If you like placing pro and practicing anchor building, it is technically satisfying. You have to be aware of the fall potential with respect to the tethers, nylon or spectra but I haven't used a screamer though, perhaps I will, I have a couple. It can be slow but it is anchor building. The safety is there, most people hang comfortably off one anchor, I'm using two. By the way, I have used my Silent Partner (Wren Industries) for roped solo.


TarheelJD


Jun 22, 2011, 2:55 PM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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What is the point? If you place three pieces of gear and equalize an anchor for each aid move you end up placing a piece of gear for nearly every foot of vertical progress, maybe even more. Maybe if you had a really limited rack this might make sense but even then, back cleaning would be faster. By eliminating the rope you remove the most dynamic safety element in the system, thereby greatly increasing the risk for shock loading the system.


RDouz


Jun 22, 2011, 3:36 PM
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Re: [TarheelJD] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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The point is getting better at placing gear and building anchors .
Hey, if you end up without a rope, it may come in handy. No, mostly, I have enjoyed it.
Regarding the shock loading and safety, I don't stretch it out, I actually keep them close enough to transition smoothly.
The craft of climbing isn't always about topping out in record time.


TarheelJD


Jun 22, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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I guess it's a good way to practice building anchors but I would still want the rope.


uni_jim


Jun 22, 2011, 4:47 PM
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why not build anchors from the ground?


healyje


Jun 23, 2011, 1:03 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
You have to be aware of the fall potential with respect to the tethers, nylon or spectra but I haven't used a screamer though, perhaps I will, I have a couple.

Sorry, but this is just plain and simple a bad idea. Falling even three feet on to a leash (with or without a screamer really) is going to royally suck and that possibility is going to be a constant from anchor-to-anchor no matter what you do or say.


RDouz


Jun 23, 2011, 4:18 AM
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Re: [healyje] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Are you trying to be helpful? If so, have you fallen three feet onto an anchor via a leash?


cclarke


Jun 23, 2011, 6:59 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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If you need practice placing gear and building anchors, you have no business whatsoever rope soloing.

Don't you get enough gear placing and anchor building just doing it the normal way?


skiclimb


Jun 23, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Are you trying to be helpful? If so, have you fallen three feet onto an anchor via a leash?

I have and it is unpleasant but not too harsh. I weigh about 170.

However it is NOT safe with adjustable daisies under any circumstances without a rope. Adjustable daisies are not strong enough to fall on with complete reliability.


csproul


Jun 23, 2011, 7:11 AM
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At this point, I'm not really sure why anyone is replying to the OP. He/She is most likely trolling, or a complete moron who isn't going to listen to any amount of common sense.


RDouz


Jun 23, 2011, 7:59 AM
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Re: [csproul] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Nothing was said about adjustable daisies. In fact there was nothing said about any particular tether. I mentioned nylon vs spectra but that is it.

You would be more capable of speaking to the facts if you read the details provided. Common sense to me isn't suggesting someone is a "complete moron" when you haven't established the facts.

Furthermore your tone conveys disrespect, common sense usually beckons one to tread lightly in unfamiliar territory. Need I elaborate?

And if I were a woman, do you think your bullying passes as a pep-talk?


csproul


Jun 23, 2011, 8:16 AM
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RDouz wrote:
Nothing was said about adjustable daisies. In fact there was nothing said about any particular tether. I mentioned nylon vs spectra but that is it.

You would be more capable of speaking to the facts if you read the details provided. Common sense to me isn't suggesting someone is a "complete moron" when you haven't established the facts.

Furthermore your tone conveys disrespect, common sense usually beckons one to tread lightly in unfamiliar territory. Need I elaborate?

And if I were a woman, do you think your bullying passes as a pep-talk?
By all means then...continue with your "anchor building exercise" and don't bother to listen to other posters who have built thousands and thousands of anchors, have likely rope-soloed more pitches (aid and free) than you have climbed in your entire life, and some of whom have likely been climbing longer than you've been alive. Carry on. There..is that pep-talk enough for you?


skiclimb


Jun 23, 2011, 8:28 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Nothing was said about adjustable daisies. In fact there was nothing said about any particular tether. I mentioned nylon vs spectra but that is it.

You would be more capable of speaking to the facts if you read the details provided. Common sense to me isn't suggesting someone is a "complete moron" when you haven't established the facts.

Furthermore your tone conveys disrespect, common sense usually beckons one to tread lightly in unfamiliar territory. Need I elaborate?

And if I were a woman, do you think your bullying passes as a pep-talk?

I was being polite. The advice stands alone regardless of your personal technique

gloves off

Btw 3 solid anchors all within reach on an aid line? clipped into two at all time...

BULLSHIT! and rediculous.

Go away troll


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 23, 2011, 8:29 AM)


RDouz


Jun 23, 2011, 9:03 AM
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Re: [skiclimb] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Perhaps you and the other climber are as talented as you say? I cannot say, your comments appear as though you are trying to earn fanfare. This isn't the type of dialogue I envisioned, especially from veteran climbers.

Lesson learned: Ropeless solo can be safe providing the tether is as dynamic and strong as a climbing rope or actually is a short piece of climbing rope. Building anchors and training this way is extremely slow and would never be viable on a multi-pitch true-aid climb because of time limitations.

I respect expert climbers and welcome constructive criticism.


skiclimb


Jun 23, 2011, 9:18 AM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Perhaps you and the other climber are as talented as you say? I cannot say, your comments appear as though you are trying to earn fanfare. This isn't the type of dialogue I envisioned, especially from veteran climbers.

Lesson learned: Ropeless solo can be safe providing the tether is as dynamic and strong as a climbing rope or actually is a short piece of climbing rope. Building anchors and training this way is extremely slow and would never be viable on a multi-pitch true-aid climb because of time limitations.

I respect expert climbers and welcome constructive criticism.

Basically correct other than the fact that climbing simply is not safe.. Solo Aid climbing is a good time to fiddle around with gear and do rediculous stuff just for the hell of it. As in all climbing back stuff up where reasonably doable and make sure critical single failure points are bombproof. The biggest issue with aid is that it is a complex process and easy to make an error...no rope belay just adds a big extra risk to the main one.. human error.

As far as the flak on this thread.. that's standard internet message board bs. Combined with your odd question which you probably knew the answer to anyway you got a double dose of sacasm and crap.. on top you got pissy about the very predictable responses.. sharks in bloody water ..

Yer gonna die!!

lol


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Jun 23, 2011, 9:20 AM)


healyje


Jun 23, 2011, 11:04 AM
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RDouz wrote:
Perhaps you and the other climber are as talented as you say? I cannot say, your comments appear as though you are trying to earn fanfare. This isn't the type of dialogue I envisioned, especially from veteran climbers.

You should listen to what is being said, this is not being said for idle chatter on the internet.

RDouz wrote:
Are you trying to be helpful?

I am, for your benefit and for the benefit of any younger climbers who might be reading this and tempted to try this.

RDouz wrote:
If so, have you fallen three feet onto an anchor via a leash?

No. In 37 years of climbing I have assiduously avoided ever being in that situation because it's so dangerous. I have held fall near-'factor 2 falls' and can assure you it's not pleasant. I've never decked either but I wouldn't try using that as an argument or reason why poor protection, bad belaying, or free soloing is a good idea.

RDouz wrote:
Lesson learned: Ropeless solo can be safe...

Sorry, but that is an incorrect conclusion from your experience and a poor assumption; it also represents just the type of "reinvention of climbing" by people new to climbing that we of late been seeing a trend of here. We as climbers do things the way we do and have a tradition of 'best practices' we pass down climber-to-climber. These 'best practices' - like those in aviation and other pursuits - were developed in a long Darwinian processes. What you are suggesting / promoting is like a dead branch on the tree of life - not overly conducive to life and provides no specific or enduring advantages. You don't want to be operating on the wrong side of that Darwinian equation.

RDouz wrote:
...providing the tether is as dynamic and strong as a climbing rope or actually is a short piece of climbing rope.

A short fall on to an anchor sucks, it doesn't matter if it's a rope or leash beyond how bad it sucks - three feet of dynamic climbing rope isn't dynamic enough over that distance for the fall to be anything but bad news. The biggest difference is the rope won't break whereas a leash very well might.

RDouz wrote:
I respect expert climbers and welcome constructive criticism.

Unfortunately, the most "constructive" thing that can be said about what you are doing is that you should stop doing it and others should not consider this as a valid form of 'practice' in aid climbing. Look, if it were either safe or useful we'd have already been doing it when you started climbing.


edge


Jun 23, 2011, 11:47 AM
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Re: [healyje] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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Well said, healyje.


Partner cracklover


Jun 23, 2011, 12:15 PM
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Re: [RDouz] Ropeless Aid [In reply to]
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RDouz wrote:
Are you trying to be helpful? If so, have you fallen three feet onto an anchor via a leash?

A girl I was belaying slipped out of her aiders (in the rain) and fell about a foot and a half onto her daisies. Ripped two pockets, and fucked up her back for at least a couple years (lost touch w/ her after that.)

I certainly wouldn't recommend taking an even longer fall onto your leash.

GO


Partner cracklover


Jun 23, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Oh, btw, I believe there *can be* significant benefit in ropeless aid bouldering. If you already have a good foundation in aid climbing, and you want to, say, get a good sense of the limits of gear in a new area you are not familiar with before getting on a hard line, you can sometimes test a lot of placements (e.g. hooking flakes) near the ground.

GO

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