|
patto
Jul 5, 2011, 7:45 PM
Post #2 of 29
(30889 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 15, 2005
Posts: 1453
|
Another terrible accident. I feel for the families of the victim.
This shouldn't be happening. How many times does this happen? Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Jul 5, 2011, 9:00 PM
Post #3 of 29
(30809 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
very sad news!
Surprised at the location though.
RIP
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jul 6, 2011, 1:30 AM
Post #5 of 29
(30487 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave
Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Jul 6, 2011, 1:38 AM
Post #6 of 29
(30474 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
So sorry to read of another one.
My condolences to all of the family and friends.
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Jul 6, 2011, 2:13 AM
Post #7 of 29
(30431 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
socalclimber wrote: drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis.
That is absolutely true. You'd think leading a route would be the lethal part, but the dangers are so immediate that the climber is constantly engauged in midigating them and is more successful in doing so as a result. Unfortunately rapping is the "easy" part where we tend to relax because the dangers aren't in our face like they are while leading.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jul 6, 2011, 2:55 AM
Post #8 of 29
(30374 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
notapplicable wrote: socalclimber wrote: drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis. That is absolutely true. You'd think leading a route would be the lethal part, but the dangers are so immediate that the climber is constantly engauged in midigating them and is more successful in doing so as a result. Unfortunately rapping is the "easy" part where we tend to relax because the dangers aren't in our face like they are while leading.
Unfortunately I don't see an end to this. Climbers these days just are not taking the time to learn the skills necessary to stay alive in the long run. We are seeing this especially with belay accidents. When I first started climbing it was almost unheard of that a belayer decked their partner. Rap accidents happened, but not nearly at this level.
People just are not willing to take the time required to dial themselves in and pay attention.
I've said it a hundred times on this site. KNOW WHERE YOUR ENDS ARE. Take your time.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 6, 2011, 2:55 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Jul 6, 2011, 7:38 PM
Post #9 of 29
(29841 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
Shit, that sucks. Really, really sucks.
But isn't frosted flake only like a 50/60 foot route? Am I mis-remembering?
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Jul 6, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #10 of 29
(29819 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
sungam wrote: Shit, that sucks. Really, really sucks. But isn't frosted flake only like a 50/60 foot route? Am I mis-remembering?
|
|
|
|
|
xbrianx1990
Jul 7, 2011, 2:31 AM
Post #11 of 29
(29612 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2009
Posts: 41
|
The article says "his rope came loose from pin". Pretty vauge but no where does it say he rapped of the ends of his rope. Does anyone know what really happened?
|
|
|
|
|
thatguyat99
Jul 7, 2011, 3:50 AM
Post #12 of 29
(29549 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2008
Posts: 121
|
Yeh it is around 80 ft. If I remember there are 2 different anchors to rappel off...both about 80 ft from the ground.
I'm interpreting it as the rope wasn't played out with both ends at the ground...only one end was on the ground and he rapped past the end that was still in the air. This would cause the rope to pull through the pin or anchor with his weight on only one strand.
Is this correct?
Really sucks...my condolences to family and friends.
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Jul 7, 2011, 12:19 PM
Post #13 of 29
(29459 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
xbrianx1990 wrote: The article says "his rope came loose from pin". Pretty vauge but no where does it say he rapped of the ends of his rope. Does anyone know what really happened?
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jul 7, 2011, 1:24 PM
Post #14 of 29
(29424 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
socalclimber wrote: drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis.
I agree completely.
But, I'll also bring up a secondary issue, namely the dogma that all single pitches equipped with anchors must be rapped from to "save the anchors."
My understanding is that Frosted Flake's anchors are SS rings, which are designed to handle lowering and to be replaced easily in those rare cases when they can't. When I see SS rings at the top of a route, I stay on belay and lower.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Jul 7, 2011, 1:26 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Jul 7, 2011, 1:39 PM
Post #15 of 29
(29408 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
csproul wrote: sungam wrote: Shit, that sucks. Really, really sucks. But isn't frosted flake only like a 50/60 foot route? Am I mis-remembering? A little longer. Probably closer to 80 feet.
For reference, the average fatal fall in an industrial setting is less than 15 feet. Sometimes I think we get a bit jaded about what constitutes a dangerous height.
Condolences to the family and friends.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jul 7, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #16 of 29
(29303 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
dynosore wrote: For reference, the average fatal fall in an industrial setting is less than 15 feet. Sometimes I think we get a bit jaded about what constitutes a dangerous height. Condolences to the family and friends.
This is so true. What amazes me are not the fatalities from short distances. The survival of people from big heights are astounding.
When I was on SAR we had a horrible solo accident. The guy peeled off of North Overhang Bypass from nearly the top. He went 70', landed on a ledge, rolled over, and went another 35'+ to the ground. While he did spend considerable time in recovery, he's back out and about climbing.
Absolutely amazing.
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 7, 2011, 5:28 PM
Post #17 of 29
(29301 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
csproul wrote: xbrianx1990 wrote: The article says "his rope came loose from pin". Pretty vauge but no where does it say he rapped of the ends of his rope. Does anyone know what really happened? There was a post on the CCC website from the first responder that laid out the events pretty clearly.
link?
|
|
|
|
|
boymeetsrock
Jul 7, 2011, 8:53 PM
Post #19 of 29
(29193 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2005
Posts: 1709
|
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
drector
Jul 7, 2011, 9:39 PM
Post #20 of 29
(29164 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037
|
socalclimber wrote: notapplicable wrote: socalclimber wrote: drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis. That is absolutely true. You'd think leading a route would be the lethal part, but the dangers are so immediate that the climber is constantly engauged in midigating them and is more successful in doing so as a result. Unfortunately rapping is the "easy" part where we tend to relax because the dangers aren't in our face like they are while leading. Unfortunately I don't see an end to this. Climbers these days just are not taking the time to learn the skills necessary to stay alive in the long run. We are seeing this especially with belay accidents. When I first started climbing it was almost unheard of that a belayer decked their partner. Rap accidents happened, but not nearly at this level. People just are not willing to take the time required to dial themselves in and pay attention. I've said it a hundred times on this site. KNOW WHERE YOUR ENDS ARE. Take your time.
When you learn to fly an airplane, you rely on an instructor in the plane, an instructor in ground school, and an examiner, all to take the time to teach you the skills necessary to stay alive. In climbing, the climber is somehow required to learn those skills while all the time not having enough of them to know which ones are needed.
In other words, the teacher is responsible because the student has no way of knowing if they have or do not have the skills they need to stay alive.
I don't know how to accomplish a change in teaching habits in a sport where many climbers are self-taught and many are taught by others who are self-taught and are probably also missing some much needed skill set.
So how does a climber take the time to learn the skills necessary to stay alive when they don't have those skills laid out clearly for them to start with? I'm not flaming. I'm interested in a real discussion about who it is that is dropping the ball in this teaching situation.
Dave
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jul 7, 2011, 10:41 PM
Post #21 of 29
(29129 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
drector wrote: socalclimber wrote: notapplicable wrote: socalclimber wrote: drector wrote: patto wrote: Climbers need to be made aware about the frequency of this accident type and be ultra cautious when rapping But how do you make climbers aware? I don't tend to tell other climbers about how they might die unless I'm there when it is about to happen. Dave Complacency kills. That's the root cause of all these belay/rap style accidents that are occurring on a nearly monthly basis. That is absolutely true. You'd think leading a route would be the lethal part, but the dangers are so immediate that the climber is constantly engauged in midigating them and is more successful in doing so as a result. Unfortunately rapping is the "easy" part where we tend to relax because the dangers aren't in our face like they are while leading. Unfortunately I don't see an end to this. Climbers these days just are not taking the time to learn the skills necessary to stay alive in the long run. We are seeing this especially with belay accidents. When I first started climbing it was almost unheard of that a belayer decked their partner. Rap accidents happened, but not nearly at this level. People just are not willing to take the time required to dial themselves in and pay attention. I've said it a hundred times on this site. KNOW WHERE YOUR ENDS ARE. Take your time. When you learn to fly an airplane, you rely on an instructor in the plane, an instructor in ground school, and an examiner, all to take the time to teach you the skills necessary to stay alive. In climbing, the climber is somehow required to learn those skills while all the time not having enough of them to know which ones are needed. In other words, the teacher is responsible because the student has no way of knowing if they have or do not have the skills they need to stay alive. I don't know how to accomplish a change in teaching habits in a sport where many climbers are self-taught and many are taught by others who are self-taught and are probably also missing some much needed skill set. So how does a climber take the time to learn the skills necessary to stay alive when they don't have those skills laid out clearly for them to start with? I'm not flaming. I'm interested in a real discussion about who it is that is dropping the ball in this teaching situation. Dave
This is a great question. I'll get back to this with my views tonight when I get home from work.
[EDIT]
This is 100% relevant to the discussion of this accident.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 7, 2011, 10:47 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
scrapedape
Jul 8, 2011, 3:54 AM
Post #22 of 29
(29008 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 2392
|
dynosore wrote: csproul wrote: sungam wrote: Shit, that sucks. Really, really sucks. But isn't frosted flake only like a 50/60 foot route? Am I mis-remembering? A little longer. Probably closer to 80 feet. For reference, the average fatal fall in an industrial setting is less than 15 feet. Sometimes I think we get a bit jaded about what constitutes a dangerous height. Condolences to the family and friends.
There's may be a bias in here due to the distribution of fall heights. If falls are overwhelmingly less than 15 feet, then even a fairly low fatality rate for such falls could lead to a large number of falls. And if few falls >15 feet are occurring, then few deaths will result from such falls. But that doesn't mean a bigger fall is less dangerous, or a shorter fall is more dangerous.
Sort of like how most car accidents happen close to home... well of course, that's where you do most of your driving.
|
|
|
|
|
testpilot
Jul 8, 2011, 4:56 AM
Post #23 of 29
(28987 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2009
Posts: 25
|
I think you raise a valid point here but I think that it doesn't have a whole lot to do with training in this situation. I think that more than likely, to be climbing in this area, one would have been taught to "close the system" with knots or at least ensure both ends are on the ground. For the very same reasons that you and I have chosen in the past to "break the rules" he did as well. I think, as has been said, the most popular problem here is complacency. The "I've been here a thousand times before" syndrome. Another one is Panic. The "I'm scared as hell so I'm going to rush and get back down to ground ASAP" syndrome. These are just two situations that I think of off the top of my head but whatever the case we should encourage each other to focus on the details and to establish habits that become second nature. (like tying stopper knots) I also really appreciate what J_ung said about not rapping if you don't have to. The rings are easy to replace. All I ever seem to hear is "died on rappel" and that really, really sucks. God bless this man and his family and loved ones.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jul 8, 2011, 6:24 AM
Post #24 of 29
(28962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
'Training', such as it is these days, may play some role in uneven rappel rope accidents among newer climbers, but doesn't account for the experienced climbers who are part of the recent cluster of uneven rap accidents.
Before sport climbing and gyms 'training' was a matter of mentoring; the demographics these days don't support that model anymore so it's more books, internet, and guides. Don't have any thoughts on a solution to that (that anyone would like).
I'm equally at a loss to explain this cluster among experienced climbers as it's such an easy situation to avoid. 'Complacency' is an easy answer, but I suspect an incomplete one.
P.S. Example from today's news of how deadly falls can be - this one at a baseball game trying catch a ball: http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_18436166
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 8, 2011, 6:48 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
JAB
Jul 8, 2011, 7:49 AM
Post #25 of 29
(28940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 373
|
sungam wrote: Shit, that sucks. Really, really sucks. But isn't frosted flake only like a 50/60 foot route? Am I mis-remembering?
I think this is a good example of why these accidents happen. Many seem to think that knots at the end of the rope are unnecessary on short routes. Nothing could be more wrong.
There are many situations where not tying a knot is a good idea, but "it's just a short rappell" is not one of them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
