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jeffkash
Jul 11, 2011, 7:36 AM
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Sorry if the sarcasm didn't come across in the subject line, but seriously, check out the bottom right picture. Keep in mind that that was a hammered flat hanger because the bolt was unsafe. The d-bag that set this anchor for some reason ignored the 2 other perfectly good bolts next to that...
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sbaclimber
Jul 11, 2011, 9:54 AM
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Well, it is obviously an utter clusterf*** put together by a complete n00b, but I don't see anything that indicates catastrophic failure is inevitable.
I am not really happy with the whole carabiner-on-carabiner action going on though. And I can't quite tell if the red rope is in sliding-x configuration or not...
PS, I agree that that bolt has no business being part of that anchor.
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 11, 2011, 10:18 AM)
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iknowfear
Jul 11, 2011, 11:18 AM
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sbaclimber wrote: Well, it is obviously an utter clusterf*** put together by a complete n00b, but I don't see anything that indicates catastrophic failure is inevitable. I am not really happy with the whole carabiner-on-carabiner action going on though. And I can't quite tell if the red rope is in sliding-x configuration or not... PS, I agree that that bolt has no business being part of that anchor.
But but but it says 25 KN! it must be Good!
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sbaclimber
Jul 11, 2011, 11:24 AM
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iknowfear wrote: sbaclimber wrote: Well, it is obviously an utter clusterf*** put together by a complete n00b, but I don't see anything that indicates catastrophic failure is inevitable. I am not really happy with the whole carabiner-on-carabiner action going on though. And I can't quite tell if the red rope is in sliding-x configuration or not... PS, I agree that that bolt has no business being part of that anchor.But but but it says 25 KN! it must be Good!
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 11, 2011, 11:48 AM)
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jeffkash
Jul 11, 2011, 2:53 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: Well, it is obviously an utter clusterf*** put together by a complete n00b, but I don't see anything that indicates catastrophic failure is inevitable. I am not really happy with the whole carabiner-on-carabiner action going on though. And I can't quite tell if the red rope is in sliding-x configuration or not... PS, I agree that that bolt has no business being part of that anchor.
If only that were true. The guy was one of those "manly man" Russian guys in his 50s that will drink 3 bottles of vodka in your face just to show you he can. He was actually a good climber, but this wasn't the first "anchor" that I've seen set up in some shoddy fashion by an eastern euro on that anchor (once is a fluke, twice is a trend??).
We got to the wall at 9:15, and some guy said that the rope on that route had been there since at least 8:45 with no one around to claim it. My group was ready to climb so I unclipped his carabiner form the one good bolt he used and clipped it to that hammered down anchor just to move it out of the way.
About 10:45 he rolls up and tries to pull my rope down without asking anyone. He finally decided that he could climb to our left on his route, after I warned him that I had unclipped one of his bolts.
The best part was that he came with his twerpy Fabio looking son, his son's stripper-esque wife who climbed in skin tight jeans and leather boots that went up past her knees, and a photographer who documented the whole day, who at one point got scared by a rope that was being thrown down and fell backwards onto some rocks and hit his head.
So much more cluster-f*ckness happened that day, but I have already written too long of a post (sorry, but this day was worth writing about).
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jeffkash
Jul 11, 2011, 3:10 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: jeffkash wrote: and a photographer who documented the whole day, who at one point got scared by a rope that was being thrown down and fell backwards onto some rocks and hit his head. So much more cluster-f*ckness happened that day, but I have already written too long of a post (sorry, but this day was worth writing about). To see the photographer falling over would've definitely made it worth it.  Unfortunately, the amount of time spent climbing doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's n00b status. They just seem to retain that level of ignorance/laziness forever. 
I wish that were the case, I maybe wouldn't have wanted to go James Bond on his Soviet a$$. It wasn't ignorance, but arrogance, pure, good ol' fashioned arrogance.
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johnwesely
Jul 11, 2011, 3:28 PM
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jeffkash wrote: sbaclimber wrote: jeffkash wrote: and a photographer who documented the whole day, who at one point got scared by a rope that was being thrown down and fell backwards onto some rocks and hit his head. So much more cluster-f*ckness happened that day, but I have already written too long of a post (sorry, but this day was worth writing about). To see the photographer falling over would've definitely made it worth it. Unfortunately, the amount of time spent climbing doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's n00b status. They just seem to retain that level of ignorance/laziness forever. I wish that were the case, I maybe wouldn't have wanted to go James Bond on his Soviet a$$. It wasn't ignorance, but arrogance, pure, good ol' fashioned arrogance.
It sounds like you got some issues with the Russians.
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ceebo
Jul 11, 2011, 3:30 PM
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jeffkash wrote: sbaclimber wrote: jeffkash wrote: and a photographer who documented the whole day, who at one point got scared by a rope that was being thrown down and fell backwards onto some rocks and hit his head. So much more cluster-f*ckness happened that day, but I have already written too long of a post (sorry, but this day was worth writing about). To see the photographer falling over would've definitely made it worth it. Unfortunately, the amount of time spent climbing doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's n00b status. They just seem to retain that level of ignorance/laziness forever. I wish that were the case, I maybe wouldn't have wanted to go James Bond on his Soviet a$$. It wasn't ignorance, but arrogance, pure, good ol' fashioned arrogance.
But that was.
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jeffkash
Jul 11, 2011, 3:34 PM
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johnwesely wrote: jeffkash wrote: sbaclimber wrote: jeffkash wrote: and a photographer who documented the whole day, who at one point got scared by a rope that was being thrown down and fell backwards onto some rocks and hit his head. So much more cluster-f*ckness happened that day, but I have already written too long of a post (sorry, but this day was worth writing about). To see the photographer falling over would've definitely made it worth it. Unfortunately, the amount of time spent climbing doesn't seem to have any effect on some people's n00b status. They just seem to retain that level of ignorance/laziness forever. I wish that were the case, I maybe wouldn't have wanted to go James Bond on his Soviet a$$. It wasn't ignorance, but arrogance, pure, good ol' fashioned arrogance. It sounds like you got some issues with the Russians.
I know it sounds like that, but it was really just this one. Some of my best friends are Russian, I swear! 
Got my girlfriend one of these as soon as we got home yesterday! http://www.cafepress.com/...assic_thong,25756680
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rescueman
Jul 11, 2011, 10:26 PM
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jeffkash wrote: My group was ready to climb so I unclipped his carabiner form the one good bolt he used and clipped it to that hammered down anchor just to move it out of the way.
So you clipped his rope into that hammered, rusty bolt....and you're blaming HIM?
I'd be just as concerned with the upper right anchor, since the rope is tensioning the bolts in withdrawal, rather than in shear as they're designed for.
(This post was edited by rescueman on Jul 11, 2011, 10:27 PM)
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jeffkash
Jul 11, 2011, 10:35 PM
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rescueman wrote: jeffkash wrote: My group was ready to climb so I unclipped his carabiner form the one good bolt he used and clipped it to that hammered down anchor just to move it out of the way. So you clipped his rope into that hammered, rusty bolt....and you're blaming HIM? I'd be just as concerned with the upper right anchor, since the rope is tensioning the bolts in withdrawal, rather than in shear as they're designed for.
Yeah, I am blaming him. I was doing him a favor and keeping things convenient for him by leaving his anchor almost entirely intact so that he could set it up easily when we were done with our route instead of just pulling the whole thing and leaving it at the bottom in the sand. I also gave him several warnings about the change I made and he understood what I said but decided to carry on either way - in his hands at that point... In hindsight, now knowing how big of a d-bag this guy was, the second option sounds better.
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rescueman
Jul 11, 2011, 11:46 PM
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jeffkash wrote: I was doing him a favor...knowing how big of a d-bag this guy was...
I'll bet he was thinking the same thing about you ("that Amerikan d-bag"). Funny how that works.
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jeffkash
Jul 12, 2011, 5:57 AM
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rescueman wrote: jeffkash wrote: I was doing him a favor...knowing how big of a d-bag this guy was... I'll bet he was thinking the same thing about you ("that Amerikan d-bag"). Funny how that works.
Yeah dude, you're right, in trying to be considerate and not be a d-bag, I was in fact being a d-bag. I think it's more funny how you slyly (or passively) tried to call me a d-bag without being there, knowing exactly how things went. Oh well, c'est la rockclimbing.com.
It's cliche, but man does it fit:
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bearbreeder
Jul 12, 2011, 6:10 AM
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you DO NOT touch other peoples anchor setups without their permission ...
unless something is failing or in imminent danger of doing so and you cant talk to them first
as others have said that anchor setup is not how id do it or recommend it at all, but i see nothing that is going to fail imminently
ive seen crap anchor setups, crap rappelling (self lowering hand over hand), crap belaying, and crao decisions (group solos where if one person falls they take everyone down)
at most ill have a quiet word
again ... you DO NOT touch others peoples setups without permission ...
unless you want to be self appointed crag know it all police ... rc.com spread into the real world
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jeffkash
Jul 12, 2011, 6:36 AM
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I hear where you're coming from, but you are missing some other factors here. This is a super busy wall with only a handful of routes. It is not acceptable to leave your rope for over 2 hours unattended and not expect others to want to climb the route.
I did what I felt at the time was something reasonable by leaving it relatively intact so that it could be set back up quickly without much hassle. I understand your rationale, and that there is the danger aspect of it, but the normal person would not have climbed knowing that their anchor had been changed.
I am not seeing any other reason to not touch someone's anchor. This guy made the conscious decision to climb in between routes on an anchor that he knew was changed.
And yes, I am a big stickler for proper anchor set up, but I did not unclip his piece because of his dangerous set up, but because I needed to set up my anchor as my group was ready to climb.
Believe me, the self-appointed crag know it all police in me wanted to tear the whole thing down and throw it in the ocean and lecture the dude, but I just let him climb it the way he wanted to.
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bearbreeder
Jul 12, 2011, 6:43 AM
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then take the entire thing down and explain why
DO NOT leave up a rope on which youve changed the anchor setup without informing the owner ...
while you may believe you are making it "safer" or just "moving it out of the way" ... you just messed with someone elses setup and theyll climb on it without knowing its been changed
i dont care how "safe" you make my anchor ... if it was me, you and my nut tool would be having words
youve just messed with something someones life depends upon
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jeffkash
Jul 12, 2011, 6:52 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: then take the entire thing down and explain why DO NOT leave up a rope on which youve changed the anchor setup without informing the owner ... while you may believe you are making it "safer" or just "moving it out of the way" ... you just messed with someone elses setup and theyll climb on it without knowing its been changed i dont care how "safe" you make my anchor ... if it was me, you and my nut tool would be having words youve just messed with something someones life depends upon
I'm not understanding why you don't get what I am saying. It's like I type something and you ignore the words I write to make it fit into the image that you have in your head of what happened.
I did not change anything to make anything safer. I said in hindsight I should have torn it down. I said I told him that I changed it, and also intended to change it back if by the time we finished he still had not arrived. By me telling him several times of the change that I made he then made the decision to climb on it regardless. He also decided to climb between routes.
You are responsible for your own a$$ when climbing.
(This post was edited by jeffkash on Jul 12, 2011, 6:53 AM)
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bearbreeder
Jul 12, 2011, 6:59 AM
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so let me get this straight ... you go off and mess with someones setup ... you make it less safe by "My group was ready to climb so I unclipped his carabiner form the one good bolt he used and clipped it to that hammered down anchor just to move it out of the way."
then you took photos of the new "unsafe" setup you just changed and posted it on here ???
and something about russkies ...
rc just makes me sick sometimes 
you DO NOT make someones anchor less safe and leave a rope on it ... or make it less safe period ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 12, 2011, 7:01 AM)
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jeffkash
Jul 12, 2011, 7:04 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: so let me get this straight ... you go off and mess with someones setup ... you make it less safe by " My group was ready to climb so I unclipped his carabiner form the one good bolt he used and clipped it to that hammered down anchor just to move it out of the way." then you took photos of the new "unsafe" setup you just changed and posted it on here ??? and something about russkies ... rc just makes me sick sometimes
Finally, we can agree on something!
It must be nice to have all the answers to situations that you have yet to encounter.
And thank you for proving that you aren't paying any attention at all. The pictures I posted were before I changed anything to the anchor (In case you were wondering, this is where you admit you were wrong - it's ok, you can just say it to yourself, no need to type it). It is possible on RC.com to admit fault, I believe I did several times already.
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bearbreeder
Jul 12, 2011, 7:08 AM
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you made someones anchors less safe .. and you left a rope on it
end of story
doesnt matter how much you "warn" them ... if you didnt warn them in time before they started climbing again on it, youd bear the responsibility
take the rope off if you must
but do NOT make someones anchors less safe, or mess with their anchors period ...
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jeffkash
Jul 12, 2011, 7:17 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: you made someones anchors less safe .. and you left a rope on it end of story doesnt matter how much you "warn" them ... if you didnt warn them in time before they started climbing again on it, youd bear the responsibility take the rope off if you must but do NOT make someones anchors less safe, or mess with their anchors period ...
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patto
Jul 12, 2011, 7:19 AM
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Why were you messing with somebody elses anchor?
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sbaclimber
Jul 12, 2011, 7:35 AM
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patto wrote: Why were you messing with somebody elses anchor?
Makes me very very grateful for living in an area with enough climbing available for this to rarely be an issue.
Preferring and/or having to lead or follow a leader as opposed to to setting up toprope from above helps too...
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curt
Jul 12, 2011, 7:52 AM
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I was going to reply with something substantive, but then actually read the thread and completely lost interest.
Curt
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