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Algoessailing
Jul 26, 2011, 6:12 PM
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I have recently built my kids (and myself, i suppose) a 14 foot high climbing wall on the outside of their tree fort. Our intent is to learn some basics and toprope some of the 20-30 foot rocks that we encounter while backpacking. I have an eye hook mounted at the top of the wall, one foot out from the wall, on which i will attach a locking carabiner. My question is about suggestions for rope. I looked to New England Ropes, as I use their products in sailing. They offer the fly, low elongation static, and a gym rope, a durable dynamic. I am sure other companies make similar cordage, i just used these two as examples. Anyone have any suggestions? Who am i kidding, of course you do. Would anyone care to share their suggestions? Thanks
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MS1
Jul 26, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Algoessailing wrote: I have recently built my kids (and myself, i suppose) a 14 foot high climbing wall on the outside of their tree fort. Our intent is to learn some basics and toprope some of the 20-30 foot rocks that we encounter while backpacking. I have an eye hook mounted at the top of the wall, one foot out from the wall, on which i will attach a locking carabiner. My question is about suggestions for rope. I looked to New England Ropes, as I use their products in sailing. They offer the fly, low elongation static, and a gym rope, a durable dynamic. I am sure other companies make similar cordage, i just used these two as examples. Anyone have any suggestions? Who am i kidding, of course you do. Would anyone care to share their suggestions? Thanks 1. Use a dynamic rope for this. The one you mentioned would be fine. 2. It should go without saying, but make sure you get competent instruction in belay technique before you put your own or other's lives at risk. 3. Keep in mind that climbing loads can be higher than you might expect; make sure your top-anchor is up to the job, and make it redundant (rather than a single bolt and carabiner).
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markc
Jul 26, 2011, 6:40 PM
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My first concern, which MS1 mentioned, is the strength and redundancy of your top anchor. Regarding the rope, I'd suggest looking at a short rope from a retailer like Gear Express http://www.gearexpress.biz/...amp;Category_Code=SR. It will run you about 75「 a foot.
(This post was edited by markc on Jul 26, 2011, 6:41 PM)
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sungam
Jul 26, 2011, 6:42 PM
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Grab the gym rope, or the thinnest rope you can. It almost definitely has a nice hand and will be easier to belay with. Kids and other weak people (E.G. Spikkeddem) can have issues pulling a fat and stiff rope through a belay plate, and when kids fall on TR, there really isn't that much force involved so the catch is pretty easy.
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Algoessailing
Jul 26, 2011, 8:50 PM
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@Ms1 I appreciate that you took time to respond. However, to a noob, you are no different than rockclimber124 who answers questions over on ask.com. I would love to hear why you think I should use dynamic rope on such a short climb. @Mark Thanks for the link. I had looked at that site previously while searching these forums. As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it. @sungam I知 surprised to see a thin rope recommendation. I have an ATC not a plate, would that make a difference? I thought that a thicker rope (10.5 or something) was easier to brake?
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rtwilli4
Jul 26, 2011, 9:21 PM
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Algoessailing wrote: @Ms1 I appreciate that you took time to respond. However, to a noob, you are no different than rockclimber124 who answers questions over on ask.com. I would love to hear why you think I should use dynamic rope on such a short climb. @Mark Thanks for the link. I had looked at that site previously while searching these forums. As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it. @sungam I知 surprised to see a thin rope recommendation. I have an ATC not a plate, would that make a difference? I thought that a thicker rope (10.5 or something) was easier to brake? Static ropes are fine for TRing but if someone falls on it with too much slack in the line they could end up taking a nasty fall. It might seem like this would never happen, but on a static rope a fall of even 12 inches can cause injury. You'd need to keep the rope pretty snug to be safe, and some kids don't like that. I'd also recommend a dynamic rope for this reason... plus it will be much easier to handle and run through the ATC. Static ropes are stiff and it will be hard to teach your kids how to belay with a stiff rope. This is also the reason Sungam recommended a thinner rope. It won't he hard to catch the kids and using a thinner rope will just make it easier to belay. Pulling a fatty rope through the ATC sucks. somewhere between 10 and 10.5 would be fine, but 11mil ropes aren't that common anymore and some of the newer belay devices seem to be taking this into consideration, making the slots a bit smaller. And yea, make sure the anchor is bomber. I know you said it was, but no one (NO ONE) top ropes on a single bolt. You really should have two eye bolts equalized, not only for redundancy but as a teaching tool as well.
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eRJe
Jul 26, 2011, 9:36 PM
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Algoessailing wrote: ...As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it.... So you are trusting your children's lives, or at the very least limbs, on a single piece of equipment? Please tell me it is at least full strength. There is a reason all of the more experienced climbers are telling you to build a redundant anchor. It is to keep your kids from getting hurt or worse. You've already admitted that you don't have much experience climbing, so please listen to those who do. Right now telling us you don't need two bomber pieces for your anchor is the equivalent of you seeing me doing something unsafe on a sailing vessel (on which I have absolutely no experience), telling me what I'm doing unsafely and me telling you that you are wrong and I will be fine. I'd recommend finding an anchor building and top roping course somewhere as well. It can be very helpful in learning what is a safe set up and what is not.
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sungam
Jul 26, 2011, 9:36 PM
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A "plate" means any non-autolocking belay device. Easier ropes are easier to break, but it is so easy to catch someone light that the difference is negligable. I have gotten mad pumped arms working against swollen fat ropes before. working against the drag through a plate can be hard work, especially for kids. EDIT TO ADD: I just noticed you are planning to belay off a single anchor, this is not really acceptable. The chances of there being a one off manufacturing issue with the anchor are very small, but the chances of it happening with two are infintesimal. It's a big gain in safety for a pretty small price. Good gawd do I need to download a spell checker for ReConq.
(This post was edited by sungam on Jul 26, 2011, 9:43 PM)
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ablanchard17
Jul 26, 2011, 10:04 PM
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PLEASE seek proper instruction from a local climbing gym. or other trusted source. I will also repeat that NOBODY TR's ( or anything else important ) on a single anything. Bolt or pro you MUST have redundancy
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cornstateclimber
Jul 27, 2011, 12:21 AM
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if the top of the house and wall are in a tree that is stout then you can use chains around a big branch. the chain/s should of good size (3/8) . that will be plenty bomber. my 20' wall was attached to huge oak tree and thats what i went with. its still up and bomber today after 10 years of use. as for a rope, go with a 40' short dynamic as mentioned before. gearexpress sells em daily. the catch of the static will be hard on the little ones and yourself, even if very little distance. the dynamic wont have alot of stretch at that short of length, but it will be enuff to make for easy falls. i took plenty of 5-8 foot falls on mine, and never had any injury or pain. but, again, as mentioned before, before putting yourself and children in harms way, attain proper instruction.
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ToeMoss
Jul 27, 2011, 12:27 AM
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ablanchard17 wrote: I will also repeat that NOBODY TR's ( or anything else important ) on a single anything. Bolt or pro you MUST have redundancy Correct! I never belay off a single belay loop, with a single locking biner, holding a single belay device, threaded with a single line, that's tied with a single knot. But to the OP, yes, redundancy is a must if at all possible in most situations (anchoring is one of them).
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DougMartin
Jul 27, 2011, 1:16 AM
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First buy a dynamic rope one long enough to top rope the rocks on your hikes with! Kill two birds with one stone! Second on the anchor, a single eye hook is OK as long as you use tubular webbing to back it up with (say between the 'biners and the tree itself)!! Two 'biners are a good idea opposite and opposed! What you should end up with for your climbing wall is everything that you would basically need to top rope with! At our ropes course we use a single eye bolt, attached to that eye bolt is a 14 mm quick link, on that quick link is an SRD threw which our dynamic rope is strung! The entire thing is backed up with nothing more than tubular webbing! So splurge and buy some webbing some lockers and a nice chunk of rope you'll be more than safe and have every thing to rig a nice top rope up the rock!
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chatreed
Jul 27, 2011, 6:45 AM
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DougMartin wrote: First buy a dynamic rope one long enough to top rope the rocks on your hikes with! Kill two birds with one stone! Second on the anchor, a single eye hook is OK as long as you use tubular webbing to back it up with (say between the 'biners and the tree itself)!! Two 'biners are a good idea opposite and opposed! What you should end up with for your climbing wall is everything that you would basically need to top rope with! At our ropes course we use a single eye bolt, attached to that eye bolt is a 14 mm quick link, on that quick link is an SRD threw which our dynamic rope is strung! The entire thing is backed up with nothing more than tubular webbing! So splurge and buy some webbing some lockers and a nice chunk of rope you'll be more than safe and have every thing to rig a nice top rope up the rock! anyway, safety is the most important issue.
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MS1
Jul 27, 2011, 1:13 PM
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Algoessailing wrote: @Ms1 I appreciate that you took time to respond. However, to a noob, you are no different than rockclimber124 who answers questions over on ask.com. I would love to hear why you think I should use dynamic rope on such a short climb. @Mark Thanks for the link. I had looked at that site previously while searching these forums. As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it. @sungam I知 surprised to see a thin rope recommendation. I have an ATC not a plate, would that make a difference? I thought that a thicker rope (10.5 or something) was easier to brake? Based on the highlighted sentence, it is pretty clear that this is a troll. Using "bomber" to mean safe is climbing slang and I've never heard sailors (or any other non-climber) use it.
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Algoessailing
Jul 27, 2011, 3:00 PM
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MS1 wrote: Algoessailing wrote: @Ms1 I appreciate that you took time to respond. However, to a noob, you are no different than rockclimber124 who answers questions over on ask.com. I would love to hear why you think I should use dynamic rope on such a short climb. @Mark Thanks for the link. I had looked at that site previously while searching these forums. As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it. @sungam I知 surprised to see a thin rope recommendation. I have an ATC not a plate, would that make a difference? I thought that a thicker rope (10.5 or something) was easier to brake? Based on the highlighted sentence, it is pretty clear that this is a troll. Using "bomber" to mean safe is climbing slang and I've never heard sailors (or any other non-climber) use it. What is clear is that you have no interest in offering any explanation, and that is perfectly fine with me. This is, however, not a troll. In How to Rock Climb! By John Long (a member of this community), Mr. Long uses the term bomber concerning anchors numerous times. There seems to be many assumptions that I have never climbed, haven稚 gotten any professional instruction, and have done no research. All of those assumptions would be false. This tread was intended to be a discussion on the use of static vs dynamic line on very short climbs. To those of you who offered advice, thank you for your information and explanations. Though I am surprised to see no one stand up for static line, a thin dynamic line seems to be what I am looking for.
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JoeHamilton
Jul 27, 2011, 3:20 PM
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It's a short wall rite ? Use the line that has the least amount of stretch. I think people are simply suggesting you use two eye bolts, a small sling and two locking biners to make an even more redundant bomber anchor for the top rope. Many of have children as well and would not want to hear about a single eye bolt ripping threw the wood because some one over the weight capacity tried your home wall. Hope that helps .
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Kartessa
Jul 27, 2011, 3:37 PM
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JoeHamilton wrote: It's a short wall rite ? Use the line that has the least amount of stretch. What's the length of the wall got to do with stretch in the rope? Least amount of stretch would be a static line, but I believe he was advised against that. I'll add my $0.02; Buy a fat dynamic rope like the Apex - 10.5 fits in a grigri happily, if you're using a tube, go for 11mm. You can chop it into 35ft lengths (x6 in a 60m), and abuse the shit out of it all you want, let your kids hang, rub the rope against rock/holds, play, whatever. Just remember to always take it down when you're done with it and check it often for abnormalities. Jus' sayin'
(This post was edited by Kartessa on Jul 27, 2011, 3:39 PM)
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Algoessailing
Jul 27, 2011, 3:57 PM
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JoeHamilton wrote: It's a short wall rite ? Use the line that has the least amount of stretch. I think people are simply suggesting you use two eye bolts, a small sling and two locking biners to make an even more redundant bomber anchor for the top rope. Many of have children as well and would not want to hear about a single eye bolt ripping threw the wood because some one over the weight capacity tried your home wall. Hope that helps . Thanks joe. I didn't want to waste everyone's time reading about how I built my wall. The eye bolt is attached to a 1/4 inch thick 2x2 steel tube with gusset supports welded on so that it cannot collapse, and supported angularly downward by another pice of 2.2 tube steel. The main tube is welded perpendicular to a 1/4 inch 2x2 piece of angle that stretches 5 feet across the outside of one wall. Six 1/2 inch bolts are placed through the angle, through the 3/4 plywood, through 4x4 blocks between the wall studs then trough a 2x4 spanning the same five feet (catches five studs), and finally through a 1/4 thick plate that backs up the 2x4 completely. Due to a suspension bridge, The opposite side of the fort is anchored to a 3.5 foot diameter oak tree at the same elevation as the climbing anchor and four 4x4 posts cemented into the ground. The weakest link is certainly the 1/2 inch forged eyebolt rated at SWL 2200 lbs. I could easily add another, but i felt it was a bit overkill.
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bearbreeder
Jul 27, 2011, 4:19 PM
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1. put it another bolt ... redundancy is not "needed" most of the time ... but it is very good practice in climbing when possible with TR anchors and when there are kids involved ... remember that the anchor will be unsupervised ... follow the same standard as gyms ... 2. really any dynamic rope is fine ... 10-10.5mm if youll be top roping on it ... you can buy a cheap one for ~100-150$ or so ... other than that dont worry about it too much ... id be much more worried about kids being properly taught in belay techniques oh ,,, and use two opposing biners/draws at the top off both bolts for the anchor
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markc
Jul 27, 2011, 4:58 PM
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Kartessa wrote: Buy a fat dynamic rope like the Apex - 10.5 fits in a grigri happily, if you're using a tube, go for 11mm. I'd watch the diameter depending upon the size of the kids. While it's probably not an issue on this short of a wall, kids under a certain size don't have enough weight to overcome the friction in the system. I've had to climb up the start of routes to pull down my son (a bit under 40 pounds). 10.5 is as thick as I would go. If the plan is to build towards outside climbing and he chops a full-length rope, I'd probably keep a 75'-100' length intact, and then have a few shorter lengths to swap out on the home wall.
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MS1
Jul 27, 2011, 5:14 PM
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JoeHamilton wrote: It's a short wall rite ? Use the line that has the least amount of stretch. I think people are simply suggesting you use two eye bolts, a small sling and two locking biners to make an even more redundant bomber anchor for the top rope. Many of have children as well and would not want to hear about a single eye bolt ripping threw the wood because some one over the weight capacity tried your home wall. Hope that helps . The value of low stretch lines increases as walls get taller, not as they get shorter. On very tall top-ropes, you can end up decking from pretty high up due to rope stretch even with a tight belay. That's the main argument in favor of using static or low-stretch dynamic ropes for toproping. Of course, using such ropes has a big downside because of the high forces on both anchors and climbers that can result even a small amount of slack develops before a fall. So there is essentially no reason to use a static on a small backyard wall, especially if the anchors are subpar. (I include this information, not for the trolling OP, but to keep other beginners from getting misled.)
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MS1
Jul 27, 2011, 5:27 PM
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Algoessailing wrote: MS1 wrote: Algoessailing wrote: @Ms1 I appreciate that you took time to respond. However, to a noob, you are no different than rockclimber124 who answers questions over on ask.com. I would love to hear why you think I should use dynamic rope on such a short climb. @Mark Thanks for the link. I had looked at that site previously while searching these forums. As for a single anchor, I assure you it is bomber: I知 putting my children on it. @sungam I知 surprised to see a thin rope recommendation. I have an ATC not a plate, would that make a difference? I thought that a thicker rope (10.5 or something) was easier to brake? Based on the highlighted sentence, it is pretty clear that this is a troll. Using "bomber" to mean safe is climbing slang and I've never heard sailors (or any other non-climber) use it. What is clear is that you have no interest in offering any explanation, and that is perfectly fine with me. This is, however, not a troll. In How to Rock Climb! By John Long (a member of this community), Mr. Long uses the term bomber concerning anchors numerous times. There seems to be many assumptions that I have never climbed, haven稚 gotten any professional instruction, and have done no research. All of those assumptions would be false. This tread was intended to be a discussion on the use of static vs dynamic line on very short climbs. To those of you who offered advice, thank you for your information and explanations. Though I am surprised to see no one stand up for static line, a thin dynamic line seems to be what I am looking for. Honestly, it should be less embarrassing to admit to trolling than to admit that you read that book without getting his repeated message that any climbing anchor system needs to be redundant.
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JoeHamilton
Jul 27, 2011, 6:04 PM
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Ms1, thanx for the correction, my thought was at 14 feet , they could hit the ground from stretching of the rope . It does make sense though that without the stretch I guess a whiplash effect could occur. Am I getting that right.
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Algoessailing
Jul 27, 2011, 7:58 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: other than that dont worry about it too much ... id be much more worried about kids being properly taught in belay techniques ohote] I have lots of retired rope so i have already started teaching them harness adjustment, tying in, knots, and belay (with a five gallon bucket as weight) so they get used to the motions
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Algoessailing
Jul 27, 2011, 8:08 PM
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Honestly, it should be less embarrassing to admit to trolling than to admit that you read that book without getting his repeated message that any climbing anchor system needs to be redundant. have you actually read any of the posts? We covered the troll issue. Thanks for adding an explanation of top roping and stretch problems with height. seems counter intuitive to me but makes sense. BTW, if you feel like you need to continue making false accusations, please just dont post on my threads any more.
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