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michael1245


Aug 1, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
you seem to think that asking the climber to wait because the leader might fall on the rappeller is legitimate, while I think that is just silly.

I've come down to climbers while rappelling and vice versa. and it's always been, "hi. so, umm, I go left and you go right?" sort of encounters.

I see this as somebody being a jerk by not being willing to grant someone a simple courtesy and using some sort of unspoken-rule-of-climbing as an excuse. and we're talking about a guy looking out for his girlfriend...more of a sensitive/personal nature I think as well.

Come on. the guy asked them to wait 2 minutes at the anchor. give em a break.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Re: [j41182] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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j41182 wrote:
Alright guys, here's what happened:

I was at a popular crag with my girlfriend a few weeks ago. We just finished a 2 pitch climb. The second pitch was a sustained 5.10+. As I was rappeling down the second pitch (and I arrive at the first anchor) I see that 2 others climbers (local climbers [I'm not local], they're about 50 years old, and I'm 20) just got to the same anchor (they just finished leading the easy 5.8+ first pitch). First reaction: Damn, overcrowed belay stations sucks. Anyways, we're rappeling down, and we'll soon be over with this.

As my girlfriend starts rappeling down the second pitch, one of the other guy at the belay station starts leading this same pitch. I said: Dude ... would you mind waiting for my GF to finish rappeling down this pitch .. ?! Because if you fall while climbing, you might fall straight on my girl friend, and it doesn't sound good to me, at all.

the climber replied (obviously pissed off): I won't fall.

I reply: I don't care if you THINK you won't wall. I don't know you as a climber. You might be a really good climber, but sure as hell this ain't some 5.2, and, even if you're a "good" climber, you COULD fall, and you COULD fall on my girlfriend. Would you really mind waiting for like 2 minutes for her to come down ?

And we continued arguing for like 2 minutes, before he finally agreed to anchor onto the first bolt, waiting for my girlfriend to come down.


Bottom line:::: Am I paranoying about security ??? Or is it only this guy being a total douche on this one ?


I'm having a really hard time imagining how a rapper has priority over a leader. Whenever I rap, even if rapping is the only way off the route, I always give plenty of distance to the climber below me and I always ask the climber if I'm in the way. The rapper has considerably more room to move around than the leader does.

Plus, doesn't it make for a more comfortable anchor if the leader is already climbing (3 people at the belay instead of 4)?

Was the guy a douchebag in his response? Maybe in his tone (according to how you said it), but climbers almost always have the right of way. The only examples I can think of where the rapper would have a reasonable expectation to have a right of way are exceptional instances. In other words, nothing like what you described.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
csproul wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j41182 wrote:
Alright guys, here's what happened:

I was at a popular crag with my girlfriend a few weeks ago. We just finished a 2 pitch climb. The second pitch was a sustained 5.10+. As I was rappeling down the second pitch (and I arrive at the first anchor) I see that 2 others climbers (local climbers [I'm not local], they're about 50 years old, and I'm 20) just got to the same anchor (they just finished leading the easy 5.8+ first pitch). First reaction: Damn, overcrowed belay stations sucks. Anyways, we're rappeling down, and we'll soon be over with this.

As my girlfriend starts rappeling down the second pitch, one of the other guy at the belay station starts leading this same pitch. I said: Dude ... would you mind waiting for my GF to finish rappeling down this pitch .. ?! Because if you fall while climbing, you might fall straight on my girl friend, and it doesn't sound good to me, at all.

the climber replied (obviously pissed off): I won't fall.

I reply: I don't care if you THINK you won't wall. I don't know you as a climber. You might be a really good climber, but sure as hell this ain't some 5.2, and, even if you're a "good" climber, you COULD fall, and you COULD fall on my girlfriend. Would you really mind waiting for like 2 minutes for her to come down ?

And we continued arguing for like 2 minutes, before he finally agreed to anchor onto the first bolt, waiting for my girlfriend to come down.


Bottom line:::: Am I paranoying about security ??? Or is it only this guy being a total douche on this one ?

Climbers get priority over rappers. Period.

You want to rap down onto a leader's head, and it's *his* fault? LAME!

GO
Bullshit. If rapping down is the expected way down a route, and someone decides to come up behind me knowing full well that I will have to come back down the same way they are coming up, then I sure as hell aren't going to wait for them to finish the route. They decided to climb fully knowing that the party in front of them would have to rap their route.

Can you imagine a day on Crimson Chrysalis where everyone going down waited for the climbers below to finish the pitch?! There would still be climbers up there from last year.

5 stars. CC is exactly the example I was thinking of.

I don't think this gives the rapper priority. If I'm leading CC then I have less of an opportunity to get out of the way than the rapper rapping over me does. Besides, there's no freaking way I want more than two people on some of those belays as opposed to three or four. With the line going up that route, the leader goes and the rapper gives fair distance. It'd be too much of a clusterfuck if all the climbers let all the rappers down first or vice versa. No way.


ckirkwood9


Aug 1, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Re: [michael1245] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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michael1245 wrote:
I've come down to climbers while rappelling and vice versa. and it's always been, "hi. so, umm, I go left and you go right?" sort of encounters...
Come on. the guy asked them to wait 2 minutes at the anchor. give em a break.

I've mostly had that experience as well, most climbers being really cool and understanding.

Some inconsiderate peeps forget what it was like to be a new climber.

Regardless of whether or not the climber THOUGHT
he'd fall, there are very real things that COULD
have happened:

- dropped gear is possible regardless of experience.
- rock dislodged by climber and/or falling rock happens all
the time.
- ANND a fall, however unlikely, is always possible and
is not always within the climber's control: holds break,
bees attack, birds dive-bomb.
(I've actually seen a Peregrine Falcon dive within inches
of a climber's head during mating season at the Gunks;
the climber was at the crux move but held it together)

And even if none of the above WOULD have happened, if the op's girlfriend was worried about it, the 2nd party could have been sensitive to that and let her finish the rap; it would have impacted their day very little.

Self-entitled people suck.

I like the quote someone used earlier in this post: 'Everything you need to know you learned in Kindergarten'
Maybe the offending climbers failed finger-painting and were held back. :p


healyje


Aug 1, 2011, 12:59 PM
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Re: [j41182] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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In multipitch the usual protocol is rapping has priority over top roping. When a rapping party meets a leading party then what goes on depends on the circumstances of the meeting.

If you start rapping unaware of a leader on route then you should do your utmost to avoid interfering with the lead. If you meet at an anchor then common sense would dictate letting the rapping party play through before continuing to climb.

Without knowing all the details in this case - i.e. quality of anchor, hanging or ledge, etc. - it's hard to say, but if the climb was a two pitch one it's hard to imagine why there would be any urgent need to jump on leading the next pitch.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 1:03 PM
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Re: [ckirkwood9] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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ckirkwood9 wrote:
I'm with the O.P.

The climbers were not being considerate.

the party rap'ing wasn't aware of the climbers until they made it to the belay station, but the climbers were likely aware of the party rap'ing.

The OP was there first, the climbers were sharing the OP's climb, not the other way around.

What is this sense of entitement that some climbers feel?

Ultimately the OP wanted to be sure his partner was safe and It would take her a lot less time to rap than it would for the climbers to ascend.

There's no reason to talk about how long it would take to simul-rap because they the OP wasn't doing that, on the contrary ~ it sounds like the OP willing to let the climbers go before he left the belay station.

Seems like he was being courteous and the climbers were not.

BOO 2nd party.

First, it was a two-pitch climb. The common courtesy I've always known is that once the second starts the second pitch then it is OK for the leader on the ground to start the first pitch. I know a lot of people who even start the first pitch when the leader of the party ahead starts the second pitch, but that's a bit too much for me (even though I've done, but that's when I've watched the leader and knew (s)he was going to be fast).

Second, regarding the bold, so what is this sense of entitlement that some rappers feel? Come on now, if one is mad that the other is feeling entitled then the angry person is also feeling entitled. Wink

I think the climbers acted poorly (based on the OP's telling of the story), but I don't think they were out of line.


ckirkwood9


Aug 1, 2011, 1:04 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
If I'm leading CC then I have less of an opportunity to get out of the way than the rapper rapping over me does.

I'd agree with you if they met mid-section. It would be easy for the rap to lock off and wait - out of the way - and in that case climber priority makes total sense. But since they all met at the rap station and the girlfriend was already on her way down, the climber was being inconsiderate.

(This post was edited by ckirkwood9 on Aug 1, 2011, 1:06 PM)


Diphthong


Aug 1, 2011, 1:07 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
ckirkwood9 wrote:
What is this sense of entitement that some climbers feel?
Second, regarding the bold, so what is this sense of entitlement that some rappers feel?

Without getting dragged into this: the rappelers were there first.


ckirkwood9


Aug 1, 2011, 1:29 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
The common courtesy I've always known is that once the second starts the second pitch then it is OK for the leader on the ground to start the first pitch.

That may very well be common practice, but it's not common courtesy. Courtesy would be for both parties to discuss what happens on a climb.

Example:

2nd party: "hey, mind if i lead below you"
1st party: "sure, go ahead, we're about to start pitch 2"

that would be common courtesy.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Second, regarding the bold, so what is this sense of entitlement that some rappers feel? Come on now, if one is mad that the other is feeling entitled then the angry person is also feeling entitled. Wink

While funny (and i think that's what you're going for based on your smiley), i'm not sure about this one. Though admittedly i had to stop and think about this for a moment... you MAY have a point... i'm just not sure though... Entitlement is assuming you have the right to something. But is it entitlement to expect others to be kind and courteous? HMMMMMMM

Gmburns2000 wrote:
I think the climbers acted poorly (based on the OP's telling of the story), but I don't think they were out of line.

I'll agree with you here, it's certainly not something that's really THAT big of a deal, it's just too bad that people aren't kind to one another. And now that i said that, i'll break into song:

Kumbayaaaa my Lord, kumbaayyaaaaaa
Kumbayaaaa my Lord, kumbaayyaaaaaa

:)


Partner cracklover


Aug 1, 2011, 2:39 PM
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Re: [Diphthong] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Diphthong wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
ckirkwood9 wrote:
What is this sense of entitement that some climbers feel?
Second, regarding the bold, so what is this sense of entitlement that some rappers feel?

Without getting dragged into this: the rappelers were there first.

Fixied.

GO


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2011, 2:53 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
csproul wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j41182 wrote:
Alright guys, here's what happened:

I was at a popular crag with my girlfriend a few weeks ago. We just finished a 2 pitch climb. The second pitch was a sustained 5.10+. As I was rappeling down the second pitch (and I arrive at the first anchor) I see that 2 others climbers (local climbers [I'm not local], they're about 50 years old, and I'm 20) just got to the same anchor (they just finished leading the easy 5.8+ first pitch). First reaction: Damn, overcrowed belay stations sucks. Anyways, we're rappeling down, and we'll soon be over with this.

As my girlfriend starts rappeling down the second pitch, one of the other guy at the belay station starts leading this same pitch. I said: Dude ... would you mind waiting for my GF to finish rappeling down this pitch .. ?! Because if you fall while climbing, you might fall straight on my girl friend, and it doesn't sound good to me, at all.

the climber replied (obviously pissed off): I won't fall.

I reply: I don't care if you THINK you won't wall. I don't know you as a climber. You might be a really good climber, but sure as hell this ain't some 5.2, and, even if you're a "good" climber, you COULD fall, and you COULD fall on my girlfriend. Would you really mind waiting for like 2 minutes for her to come down ?

And we continued arguing for like 2 minutes, before he finally agreed to anchor onto the first bolt, waiting for my girlfriend to come down.


Bottom line:::: Am I paranoying about security ??? Or is it only this guy being a total douche on this one ?

Climbers get priority over rappers. Period.

You want to rap down onto a leader's head, and it's *his* fault? LAME!

GO
Bullshit. If rapping down is the expected way down a route, and someone decides to come up behind me knowing full well that I will have to come back down the same way they are coming up, then I sure as hell aren't going to wait for them to finish the route. They decided to climb fully knowing that the party in front of them would have to rap their route.

Can you imagine a day on Crimson Chrysalis where everyone going down waited for the climbers below to finish the pitch?! There would still be climbers up there from last year.

5 stars. CC is exactly the example I was thinking of.

I don't think this gives the rapper priority. If I'm leading CC then I have less of an opportunity to get out of the way than the rapper rapping over me does. Besides, there's no freaking way I want more than two people on some of those belays as opposed to three or four. With the line going up that route, the leader goes and the rapper gives fair distance. It'd be too much of a clusterfuck if all the climbers let all the rappers down first or vice versa. No way.

Just think how much of a cluster fuck it would be if, 900 feet off the deck, a leader fell and hit a rappeller who had just passed him. Look, I'm not saying rappellers should have right of way. Nor am I saying climbers should. I'm saying work it the fuck out like sensible adults, instead applying made-up rules.


Diphthong


Aug 1, 2011, 3:19 PM
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cracklover wrote:
Diphthong wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
ckirkwood9 wrote:
What is this sense of entitement that some climbers feel?
Second, regarding the bold, so what is this sense of entitlement that some rappers feel?

Without getting dragged into this: the rappelers were there first.

Fixied.

GO

Nurp. Just providing some fodder.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
csproul wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j41182 wrote:
Alright guys, here's what happened:

I was at a popular crag with my girlfriend a few weeks ago. We just finished a 2 pitch climb. The second pitch was a sustained 5.10+. As I was rappeling down the second pitch (and I arrive at the first anchor) I see that 2 others climbers (local climbers [I'm not local], they're about 50 years old, and I'm 20) just got to the same anchor (they just finished leading the easy 5.8+ first pitch). First reaction: Damn, overcrowed belay stations sucks. Anyways, we're rappeling down, and we'll soon be over with this.

As my girlfriend starts rappeling down the second pitch, one of the other guy at the belay station starts leading this same pitch. I said: Dude ... would you mind waiting for my GF to finish rappeling down this pitch .. ?! Because if you fall while climbing, you might fall straight on my girl friend, and it doesn't sound good to me, at all.

the climber replied (obviously pissed off): I won't fall.

I reply: I don't care if you THINK you won't wall. I don't know you as a climber. You might be a really good climber, but sure as hell this ain't some 5.2, and, even if you're a "good" climber, you COULD fall, and you COULD fall on my girlfriend. Would you really mind waiting for like 2 minutes for her to come down ?

And we continued arguing for like 2 minutes, before he finally agreed to anchor onto the first bolt, waiting for my girlfriend to come down.


Bottom line:::: Am I paranoying about security ??? Or is it only this guy being a total douche on this one ?

Climbers get priority over rappers. Period.

You want to rap down onto a leader's head, and it's *his* fault? LAME!

GO
Bullshit. If rapping down is the expected way down a route, and someone decides to come up behind me knowing full well that I will have to come back down the same way they are coming up, then I sure as hell aren't going to wait for them to finish the route. They decided to climb fully knowing that the party in front of them would have to rap their route.

Can you imagine a day on Crimson Chrysalis where everyone going down waited for the climbers below to finish the pitch?! There would still be climbers up there from last year.

5 stars. CC is exactly the example I was thinking of.

I don't think this gives the rapper priority. If I'm leading CC then I have less of an opportunity to get out of the way than the rapper rapping over me does. Besides, there's no freaking way I want more than two people on some of those belays as opposed to three or four. With the line going up that route, the leader goes and the rapper gives fair distance. It'd be too much of a clusterfuck if all the climbers let all the rappers down first or vice versa. No way.

Just think how much of a cluster fuck it would be if, 900 feet off the deck, a leader fell and hit a rappeller who had just passed him. Look, I'm not saying rappellers should have right of way. Nor am I saying climbers should. I'm saying work it the fuck out like sensible adults, instead applying made-up rules.

I'm not saying we shouldn't work it out, but I think it's easier for the rappeller to get out the way for a couple minutes. It shouldn't be that hard.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 3:34 PM
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and while I've heard of leaders complaining about people rapping over them, this is the first time I've ever heard a rappeller complaining about a leader.


sspssp


Aug 1, 2011, 3:43 PM
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Yea, I would be a little surprised to be getting ready to lead a pitch and have someone who is rapping down complain. But I would probably take it as a red flag and think, hhmm, what' up, probably better let them get out of the way before I get bumped into while leading.

I've done Central Pillar and Sons of Yesterday type climbs enough to realize, that mostly all you need is a bit of common sense (and a sense of humor) and parties can climb and rap at the same time.


bearbreeder


Aug 2, 2011, 6:45 AM
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Re: [ckirkwood9] Overcrowded crags .... [In reply to]
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Climbers here will start leading a pitch on multi the moment a second starts it ... Theyll be right on yr azz

Dont like it? ... Dont climb in squamish ... Or get stronger

U can complain all u want ... It wont matter

Now having people lead THROUGH you own lead ... Thats a REAL problem

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