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granite_grrl
Aug 10, 2011, 11:48 AM
Post #26 of 47
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j_ung wrote: granite_grrl wrote: j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible I think that your list is the bare minimum that I would expect from a belayer. If I'm on a sport route that's really pushing my limits I want a belayer who can do all those things, but are good enough at rope management that it doesn't even feel like they're at the other end of the rope. Even better than that is a belayer that knows me well enough and gives me useful prompts and encouragement while I'm climbing. I'm lucky because my main climbing partner knows me better than anyone I know (my hubby), he also gives me the dreamiest soft catches out of anyone I know. Not that my other partners are giving hard catches, but they don't have the pillow like quality of the catches from my husband. I think those are covered in my numbers 3 and 6, but yeah, the specifics sure help, IMO.
It takes a lot of practice, IMO, and no one should expect a belayer to get there overnight. I think it takes a decent bit of practice to become a really good belayer.
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stoneguy
Aug 10, 2011, 12:00 PM
Post #27 of 47
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Actually I did the math, and if I am right then my 6ft climber reaches to her calf & clips beyond her head which must be 6 feet anyway. I'm 5'9" and at standing belay probably only get 5 feet of rope with two pulls, so guess I should re-assess the "reach" with each partner. This is not a problem when they are "within sight", but yes I'm probably short roping when they are out of sight, and yes likely to lose partners.
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stoneguy
Aug 10, 2011, 12:07 PM
Post #28 of 47
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Whatever your husband does, I would love to find out. Any chance he pulls down with his arm to "soften" it before he "jumps". Or is that a useless concept.
So yes I am attentive & the other stuff. Need to drag more communication out of the partner. Reaction time is very fast and clear. Need to learn "types".
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stoneguy
Aug 10, 2011, 12:12 PM
Post #29 of 47
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Yeah, after going thru this, I guess I am shortening a bit on harder climbs as they get out of sight. And I hate paying out six feet of slack when I can't see. Think I need to work on the communication. BTW thanks for the idea... maybe some first aid basics might be in order.
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granite_grrl
Aug 10, 2011, 12:22 PM
Post #30 of 47
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stoneguy wrote: Whatever your husband does, I would love to find out. Any chance he pulls down with his arm to "soften" it before he "jumps". Or is that a useless concept. So yes I am attentive & the other stuff. Need to drag more communication out of the partner. Reaction time is very fast and clear. Need to learn "types".
I think the practice thing is really key, also feedback from your partner about what was good and what wasn't.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 10, 2011, 12:48 PM
Post #31 of 47
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stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...?
Your premise is wrong, but there is a small shimmer of truth to it. Generally speaking, stronger sport climbers hang out with stronger sport climbers and usually have a lot of experience catching falls. I have observed some stronger climbers that were excellent belayers but also some that were among the worst.
Here is what it takes to be a good belayer:
1)Experience
2)Being good at observation
3)Being able to take constructive criticism
4)Being motivated to improve
5)Self-reflection
and
6)Not being an idiot definitely helps.
Josh
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happiegrrrl
Aug 10, 2011, 3:45 PM
Post #32 of 47
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dagibbs wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: add "Is ready to climb when the leader calls "On belay" when doing multipitch(although I suppose that is more of a "art of seconding" quality. Really? Nope. As a general rule, I'm not taking down my anchor until I'm on belay.
I suppose I should have been more specific.I was thinking, first pitch, leader calls off belay and either completes the anchor they are on(I tend to get one piece in, call "off" to give my partner more time, and then complete the anchor. Unless, of course, it isn't feasible to do it that way.). You pull the extra rope up , put the 2nd on belay and call "On belay." At that time, the 2nd should be ready - they should not have spent the time chatting with others instead of putting on their damned shoes!
Same at all other belays - if they have to call up "just wait - I want to snap photos" or "I think I'll get cell reception here and want to check my emails...," or didn't realize until just that moment that they are hungry and want to snack on the power bar they brought along on that 3 pitch route, they aren't being an efficient, thus good(IMO), belayer.
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happiegrrrl
Aug 10, 2011, 3:52 PM
Post #33 of 47
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j_ung wrote: If you refused me slack, I'd carpet F bomb you. BUT, I suppose I can imagine doing that in one or two situations, such as when climbing with an inexperienced leader who obviously didn't realize what he or she was about to do. Actually, even then, I don't think I'd refuse slack. I'd advise and then continue the belay.
It was "one of those" exception times, and even though I was pretty new at the time, I still stand by my decision. I've seen/heard of more that one person getting hurt at that route(very bad landing pretty impossible to avoid) and I'll take the getting sworn at option over a broken body or body part.
But the truth is now I won't just jump ON that particular route with someone I am not confident about. The one I a referring to had sprayed all over the place about his experience but the fact of his climbing was in conflict to his words. Don't worry - if I ever belay you, I feel confident you are not an idiot who can't recognize unacceptable risk. If I short-rope you, it would only be because I was watching Teddy being cute and not paying attention(hahah - kidding).
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hugepedro
Aug 10, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #34 of 47
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j_ung wrote: hugepedro wrote: j_ung wrote: stoneguy wrote: I can't think of any 5.12 climbers that would want a 5.9 belaying for them. So what are we missing. Yes, everyone wants to go "up" but the Belay is also important. So, pay attention, don't drink beer, don't talk to the tourists.... What exactly do you expect? Part of the time the climber is out of sight.. usually we're on a GriGri. What do you want.. how can we be better? Pay out the rope on time, bring in the slack after a clip, maybe a "soft catch"..? What do you need...? Well, I disagree with your first premise that climbing ability has any bearing on belaying. But I agree with your major premise that belaying is an art, and that, while it's a fundamental safety skill, it isn't necessarily easy to do it well. Personally, I think there's are intangible qualities to good belayers that are difficult, if not impossible, to teach. An innate understanding of the seriousness of the task is one. Reaction time is another, and the ability to know which reaction is appropriate is yet another. Perhaps all of these come with experience. I dunno. In no particular order, a truly good belayer... 1. Understands the seriousness of the task and pays attention 2. Knows what type of catch to administer and can do it spontaneously 3. Keeps an appropriate amount of slack or tension in the system 4. Is patient and obedient 5. Is utterly proficient with his or her chosen device 6. Communicates with the climber to the extent possible 7. Is competent with self-rescue techniques 8. Doesn't just assume that I know what I'm doing and have considered and prepared for all aspects of the route, uses their own judgement to analyze the situation and make suggestions 9. Makes sure they understand the plan before I leave the deck Your 8 and 9 are covered in my list, I think. I tried to keep it pretty general. Good number 7.
Prolly so, but I call those ones out for a very specific reason.
After the crash of AA1420 in Little Rock in 1999, the FAA revamped cockpit crew training requirements to address situations caused by the seniority system (can't remember what they called this at the moment, maybe "cockpit seniority syndrome", or something), wherein junior members of the crew would not speak up and contradict the captain when they felt something was going wrong. Cockpit culture conditioned them to not question the captain's judgement or skill. This was found to be a major factor in the failure chain of many accidents, including the worst of all time, the collision of KLM and Pan Am 747s on the Tenerife runway when the junior crew in the KLM cockpit knew everything was going wrong but would not contradict their captain.
I see this same syndrome in many climbing accidents, especially in guided parties. Clients or less experienced partners have a tendency to relinquish their own judgement and situational awareness when in the presence of an expert, and this can be disastrous.
So I never want less experienced partners to just defer to me mindlessly. Even with first time climbers, this is one of the first things I teach them. A side benefit is that it jump starts their learning process because they are analyzing "why" instead of blindly following direction.
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dagibbs
Aug 10, 2011, 5:08 PM
Post #35 of 47
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happiegrrrl wrote: dagibbs wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: add "Is ready to climb when the leader calls "On belay" when doing multipitch(although I suppose that is more of a "art of seconding" quality. Really? Nope. As a general rule, I'm not taking down my anchor until I'm on belay. Yeah, I didn't think of the first pitch as the "normal" case for multi-pitch. I think of it as the intermediate belays. But I guess if you're generally doing 2-3 pitch climbs, then pitch 1 is far more of a high-runner case. (My multi-pitch life started at EPC, and was tuned in the Alps. I almost think of 2-3 pitches as "practice multi-pitch". But that's more my personal bias.) And, sure, doing extraneous stuff, rather than being as ready as possible is impolite. I suppose I should have been more specific.I was thinking, first pitch, leader calls off belay and either completes the anchor they are on(I tend to get one piece in, call "off" to give my partner more time, and then complete the anchor. Unless, of course, it isn't feasible to do it that way.). You pull the extra rope up , put the 2nd on belay and call "On belay." At that time, the 2nd should be ready - they should not have spent the time chatting with others instead of putting on their damned shoes! Same at all other belays - if they have to call up "just wait - I want to snap photos" or "I think I'll get cell reception here and want to check my emails...," or didn't realize until just that moment that they are hungry and want to snack on the power bar they brought along on that 3 pitch route, they aren't being an efficient, thus good(IMO), belayer. |
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j_ung
Aug 11, 2011, 11:14 AM
Post #37 of 47
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happiegrrrl wrote: j_ung wrote: If you refused me slack, I'd carpet F bomb you. BUT, I suppose I can imagine doing that in one or two situations, such as when climbing with an inexperienced leader who obviously didn't realize what he or she was about to do. Actually, even then, I don't think I'd refuse slack. I'd advise and then continue the belay. It was "one of those" exception times, and even though I was pretty new at the time, I still stand by my decision. I've seen/heard of more that one person getting hurt at that route(very bad landing pretty impossible to avoid) and I'll take the getting sworn at option over a broken body or body part. But the truth is now I won't just jump ON that particular route with someone I am not confident about. The one I a referring to had sprayed all over the place about his experience but the fact of his climbing was in conflict to his words. Don't worry - if I ever belay you, I feel confident you are not an idiot who can't recognize unacceptable risk. If I short-rope you, it would only be because I was watching Teddy being cute and not paying attention(hahah - kidding).
Okay, bomb-bay doors closed. 
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Roo1986
Sep 15, 2011, 9:33 PM
Post #38 of 47
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As mentioned before, awareness is vital. Knowing where to stand to keep the rope out of the climbers way while they move to bolts 1 and 2. Stay relatively close to the wall at the beginning, keep underneath bolt 1 till the end. Keep in mind the weight difference between climber and belayer. If the belayer out weights the climber, (typical in my case) there is high potential for the climber to get what is refered to as a hard catch. Meaning, the climber falls, the belayer takes hard and backs up, all slack is removed from the rope, and the climber pendulums into the wall at high speed. If the belayer is lighter, they can't perform a hard catch, instead the belayer gets lifted off the ground and the climber falls mostly in the vertical direction (much less horizontal movement). The more you climb, the more you will figure out what makes a good belay and what annoys you about being belayed by someone you consider to be doing a bad job. Just pay attention and learn. If you didn't learn anything from a climbing trip, you are doing it wrong.
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stoneguy
Sep 15, 2011, 10:14 PM
Post #39 of 47
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There was a thread Jan 14 called "soft catch" I think which went over the dynamics of the pendulum effect and impacts involved, and also covered safety for the swing over bulges... so yeah, it's making more sense.
So far I stand right under for the first 10ft, keep it snug to 15ft, then start to move back a bit so I can actually see, but usually we have a directional in at about 5 feet. It sounds like extra slack can reduce the pendulum/impact quite a bit. I have never fallen and only had a partner fall once on TR, so it remains theoretical. My intent is to let the fall pull me to "soften" it, (still theoretical) Weighty-wise usually I am equal or less at 160 lbs.
Part of my sluggishness is the 10.3mm rope, so I need to feed it faster to my leader now knowing that extra slack higher up isn't a bad thing. Is that all mostly correct.?
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Roo1986
Sep 20, 2011, 4:30 PM
Post #40 of 47
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This sounds most correct, however it is not always the case that you have a direction piece 5 ft up. One potentially dangerous situation is if you have to stick clip high up without a directional piece, and your leader falls after passing bolt 1. Having only 1 bolt clipped results in more of the climbers weight and force being exerted on the belayer than if you had 3 bolts clipped. This is a situation where the position of the belayer and the amount of slack greatly impact the distance the climber falls. But it sounds like you are on the right path. Personally I think the position of the belayer on the ground is one of the most overlooked techniques to giving a good catch.
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jjones16
Sep 22, 2011, 1:22 AM
Post #41 of 47
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Getting lowered scares the hell out of me. Every single time.
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jt512
Sep 22, 2011, 1:33 AM
Post #42 of 47
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jjones16 wrote: Getting lowered scares the hell out of me. Every single time.
Perhaps you should consider another pastime.
Jay
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stoneguy
Sep 22, 2011, 2:00 PM
Post #43 of 47
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You commented on "the soft catch" back in January, with specific reference to a leader on overhang and how extra slack reduces the impact into the wall ..pendulum effect.
Theoretically extra slack would soften the impact on normal vertical slab climbs... to some extent? Maybe careful about when to give it..? or not worth the risk with extra fall distance.?
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jjones16
Sep 22, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #44 of 47
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jt512 wrote: jjones16 wrote: Getting lowered scares the hell out of me. Every single time. Perhaps you should consider another pastime. Jay
Nah. Going up is pretty fun so I think I'll stick with it. Thanks for taking the time to contribute constructive and insightful input though.
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jt512
Sep 22, 2011, 6:53 PM
Post #45 of 47
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stoneguy wrote: You commented on "the soft catch" back in January, with specific reference to a leader on overhang and how extra slack reduces the impact into the wall ..pendulum effect. Theoretically extra slack would soften the impact on normal vertical slab climbs... to some extent? Maybe careful about when to give it..? or not worth the risk with extra fall distance.?
Slack does not reduce the pendulum effect. I think I recall the conversation you're referring to, and I was wrong. In order to reduce the leader's impact force into the wall, you have to dynamically belay, which means jumping or letting rope slide through the belay device as the rope begins to become taut.
Jay
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stoneguy
Sep 22, 2011, 8:43 PM
Post #46 of 47
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With reference to "slack" on normal face climbing, would you leave just enough that the leader can move comfortably, I assume. I use a 10.3mm Edelrid which is sluggish, so I would kind of like to leave a bit more and stay ahead of the 3 pulls needed, especially if I can't see my partner.
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jt512
Sep 22, 2011, 8:49 PM
Post #47 of 47
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stoneguy wrote: With reference to "slack" on normal face climbing, would you leave just enough that the leader can move comfortably, I assume. I use a 10.3mm Edelrid which is sluggish, so I would kind of like to leave a bit more and stay ahead of the 3 pulls needed, especially if I can't see my partner.
For all types of climbing, I leave as little slack in the rope as I can without short-roping the leader. The only exception is if the leader is climbing above a roof, and I know that if the climber falls I want to be sure that he falls far enough to clear the roof; then I leave enough slack in the rope to accomplish that.
Jay
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