Follow-up: I'm not quite back to climbing yet, but I'm 11 weeks post surgery and back to doing most things pretty normally. Even though I need to wait a bit longer while I strengthen my foot to be ready for climbing, it's quite satisfying just to be fully mobile again. I may do some aiding at first just to be nice to my foot, but I'm expecting to be able to get back on the rocks in climbing shoes by the end of the summer.
Hooray for orthopedic care!
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jul 29, 2011, 5:36 AM)
I was standing on a large boulder belaying and had formed a split second plan if he popped. Just then, he popped! I quickly yarded in an armload of slack, locked him off and jumped (backwards) off of the boulder that I was standing on. Just as I hit the ground he hit the end of the rope. I had kept him from decking (by inches!) but I had taken quite a fall in the process! If I had just locked him off, I would have watched him crater right in front of me!
Moral of the story- there is no such thing as an auto-locking belay device.
the gri gri was never meant to be a true auto locking device. that said, i have used it as one, and had it fail for the rope somehow crossing the release lever, as well as for parts of my body, my harness and my gear having done the same. the prussik backing it up has never failed me.
for your application, the petzl stop is a more appropriate device, though for any protracted dangling and thrashing of that style, system redundancy is still a good idea.
as far as decking goes, i did once from nearly thirty feet, bouldering (soloing?) at carderrock outside of dc. there is a pretty hardpacked base trail there, and i landed on my feet and sort of plf'ed (parachute landing fall), amazingly without really mangling myself. i was young and resilient at the time, as well as in good shape, so i got away with a bruised heel that put me on a crutch for a few weeks. could easily have been a lot worse.
fortunately, i did not learn anything from the experience, because i is kinda dumb.
it is good to hear that you are nearly back on the horse. i hope that everything clicks and that you quickly find yourself back up the steep part of the curve.
your posts are very insightful and expressive. they also seem really straightforward to me. i am fascinated by how many folks seem to have spent so much keyboard time trying to read things into your original, and subsequent posts. haha!- "just the facts, ma'am".
anyway, good on ya for not getting more mangled, and sorry to clog the thread with responses to other issues.
it is good to hear that you are nearly back on the horse. i hope that everything clicks and that you quickly find yourself back up the steep part of the curve.
your posts are very insightful and expressive. they also seem really straightforward to me. i am fascinated by how many folks seem to have spent so much keyboard time trying to read things into your original, and subsequent posts. haha!- "just the facts, ma'am".
anyway, good on ya for not getting more mangled, and sorry to clog the thread with responses to other issues.
stay strong...
Frankly I've been kinda surprised by the responses to this thread. As I read it, lots of folks want to say that decking is the result of unforgivable errors and shouldn't be treated as normal, but then almost half of the respondents went on to report that they had made or watched others make unforgivable errors. Luckily, most of us survived our mistakes.
I'm happy to report that I'm back climbing again. The toes on the injured side are still very weak, but it sure feels great to be back on the rocks.
For those who care, I'm using the same system as before, but now I tie a back-up knot once I get off the ground.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 18, 2011, 7:36 PM)
For those who care, I'm using the same system as before, but now I tie a back-up knot once I get off the ground.
I dunno dude. You have a son to think about and I personally hoped you'd be smart enough to reconsider the system you are using. There's no circumstance under which I'd use a Petzl Ascension as a TR solo device, knots or not.
For those who care, I'm using the same system as before, but now I tie a back-up knot once I get off the ground.
I dunno dude. You have a son to think about and I personally hoped you'd be smart enough to reconsider the system you are using. There's no circumstance under which I'd use a Petzl Ascension as a TR solo device, knots or not.
Hoping you will still reconsider your options.
well miles (is it miles?), it's good you are back in the saddle. whatever system you are comfortable with- well, that's your choice, obviously , and no one can make that choice for you.
that said, i must echo healyje's sentiments regarding your self belay arrangement. i am not a rope soloist, so i can't give you any firsthand experience, but i do know that the system you are using is an approach that has been eclipsed by a few generations of improvement in tr solo device safety.
another thing i am confused by, is your reference to "tying a backup knot once you get off of the ground". i know at least one poster had referred to putting occasional "backup knots" in the climbing rope itself, but i think that the majority of posters were referring to using a prussik hitch, or some similar "one way" knot as a traveling backup to your jumar. what were you referring to? a prussik tied into your climbing rope above your ascender will be automatically pushed up by the frame of the device, and should catch if the device were to fail for whatever reason (obviously, even backups are not 100% certain to work).
as far as the lasting injuries go, is the weakness atrophy, or pain? if you went through physical therapy, you are probably already aware of this, but for about twenty five bucks you can score a "tens" unit, powered by a nine volt battery. i can't remember what the acronym "tens" stands for, but the thing uses electrical stimulation to help alleviate lasting pain issues that are neurally residual in nature, and that no longer represent an investigative and coordinating function of your body. i schwacked my right brachioradialis at work several months ago, and the tens unit really made a difference in the post pt completion of healing. a lot of the strength i felt i had not recovered turned out to be response to pain that did not represent actual lasting damage. either way- "slow and steady wins the race" (or something equally silly).
anyway, i hope this did not sound too preachy, that was not my intention.
oh, and by the way (and please forgive me if i am making a really stupid inference or assumption here)- if you are relying on a knot, or knots tied every so often in the climbing rope itself, as opposed to using a prussik hitch, or some similar "running" backup, you must be aware that knots in the climbing rope would not necessarily salvage a fall due to a disengaged cam on an ascender. a disengaged cam would mean that the rope is no longer captive, and that even if the ascender frame is backed up by a 'biner, it could still pass a knot in the rope. even with placed pro clipped into the rope every so often, in the absence of a traveling backup, a dynamic incident that the chasis of the ascender is not designed to accommodate would result.
once again- i hope i am not insulting you, and i do not mean to preach, but this might be info appropriate to the thread, if nothing else...
For those who care, I'm using the same system as before, but now I tie a back-up knot once I get off the ground.
I dunno dude. You have a son to think about and I personally hoped you'd be smart enough to reconsider the system you are using. There's no circumstance under which I'd use a Petzl Ascension as a TR solo device, knots or not.
Hoping you will still reconsider your options.
well miles (is it miles?), it's good you are back in the saddle. whatever system you are comfortable with- well, that's your choice, obviously , and no one can make that choice for you.
that said, i must echo healyje's sentiments regarding your self belay arrangement. i am not a rope soloist, so i can't give you any firsthand experience, but i do know that the system you are using is an approach that has been eclipsed by a few generations of improvement in tr solo device safety.
another thing i am confused by, is your reference to "tying a backup knot once you get off of the ground". i know at least one poster had referred to putting occasional "backup knots" in the climbing rope itself, but i think that the majority of posters were referring to using a prussik hitch, or some similar "one way" knot as a traveling backup to your jumar. what were you referring to? a prussik tied into your climbing rope above your ascender will be automatically pushed up by the frame of the device, and should catch if the device were to fail for whatever reason (obviously, even backups are not 100% certain to work).
as far as the lasting injuries go, is the weakness atrophy, or pain? if you went through physical therapy, you are probably already aware of this, but for about twenty five bucks you can score a "tens" unit, powered by a nine volt battery. i can't remember what the acronym "tens" stands for, but the thing uses electrical stimulation to help alleviate lasting pain issues that are neurally residual in nature, and that no longer represent an investigative and coordinating function of your body. i schwacked my right brachioradialis at work several months ago, and the tens unit really made a difference in the post pt completion of healing. a lot of the strength i felt i had not recovered turned out to be response to pain that did not represent actual lasting damage. either way- "slow and steady wins the race" (or something equally silly).
anyway, i hope this did not sound too preachy, that was not my intention.
be careful out there, bro...
Yes, it is Miles. I'm one of those wacky folks who thinks using real names on the internet fosters behavior closer to how people would conduct themselves in person.
OK, piece by piece here...
I am still considering different ways of rigging my TR solo setup, but for the most part I am still satisfied with the way I've been doing things. Adding a back-up knot is a quick easy way to give the system redundancy and would have kept me off the ground, so I added it.
I'm pretty certain that the reason I decked was because I never checked my system off the ground, so my primary response to decking was to work on that. I had basically stopped doing any pre-climb check and was just going on auto-pilot. After addressing that I continue to look for weaknesses but haven't found any yet that bother me.
When I mentioned tying back-up knots I am talking about tying knots in the line I'm climbing. I've generally been tying an overhand knot and clipping the knot to the rope. I've considered clipping knots in a second strand from the anchor, but decided that's over-kill for the little pitches I'm doing. Clipping the knot to myself doesn't work because it takes the weight off the line so the ascender could build up slack.
I've used a prussik back-up that gets pushed up the line by the ascender, but to get the prussik to slide well and not bind in the device the strands need to be on the larger side and I'm not convinced that it would catch reliably.
I wasn't aware TENS systems were so cheap, but my issue is part atrophy and part damaged tendons, so I'm not sure how useful it would be. They had to move the tendons for all but my big toe way over to do the surgery and put in the plate, so there are some issues from that.
oh, and by the way (and please forgive me if i am making a really stupid inference or assumption here)- if you are relying on a knot, or knots tied every so often in the climbing rope itself, as opposed to using a prussik hitch, or some similar "running" backup, you must be aware that knots in the climbing rope would not necessarily salvage a fall due to a disengaged cam on an ascender. a disengaged cam would mean that the rope is no longer captive, and that even if the ascender frame is backed up by a 'biner, it could still pass a knot in the rope. even with placed pro clipped into the rope every so often, in the absence of a traveling backup, a dynamic incident that the chasis of the ascender is not designed to accommodate would result.
once again- i hope i am not insulting you, and i do not mean to preach, but this might be info appropriate to the thread, if nothing else...
I clip in at the top of my ascender, so there's no way for a knot to pass through even if the cam were entirely removed. No realistic amount of deformation would allow a knot to pass, so to fail the device would have to shear the knot off or rip the belay biner through the holes in the chassis (and since the angle of pull is down we're not talking about tearing out the thin way, which requires an inconceivable amount of force anyway).
By clipping the knot to the rope, the overhand can't be untied by the impact, but it can shift a bit which I'd expect to soften the blow.
Basically I see three possible modes of failure:
1: The knot shears off. 2: The impact causes brittle failure rather than deformation, and the chassis of the device breaks up into pieces. (I still don't think the pieces it would break into would allow the knot to pass, but they could be sharp and lead to option 1). 3: The cam engages suddenly after falling a long way, not only sheathing but also severing all the internal strands as well. (on my 11mm fire hose of a rope? not likely)
One problem I see with your backup is that it only keeps you from hitting the ground. Hopefully this means that there is nothing else to hit on the way there.
One problem I see with your backup is that it only keeps you from hitting the ground. Hopefully this means that there is nothing else to hit on the way there.
I'd say tie knots a safe distance above any features you pass. So far I've only had to worry about the ground.
Seems like everybody and their little brother have weighed in, so I guess I'll admit to a couple of my experiences with "decking."
BITD (mid 70's) I was climbing a heinous off-width on the Twin Owls (pre-friends) with Lennie Coyne when I decided to change my body position and turn right side in. About 15 feet up I peeled and fell to a ramp, with about a hundred foot escarpment right below it. Lennie had the presence of mind to pounce on me before I went over the edge. My only injuries were from him tackling me. We went home.
Then, about 20 years later, I went to Suicide to try and find a climbing partner and hooked up with two novices from UC Irvine. I led Spatula for them, then talked them into Arcy Farcy (5.10c) just to the left. About 30 feet up I had to match fingers and peeled, feeling a tug then continuing to plummet toward Earth, stopping a mere five feet from the ground. Seems my belayer decided to pay out rope and back away from the wall to sit on a log, and when I hit the rope it dragged him all the way to the wall. Luckily, he hung on. When I asked him if he had ever held a leader fall he answered in his unforgettable East Indian accent: "I've never even seen a leader fall!"
Continued on with the climb only to fall about five more times, until a photographer who had climbed a nearby gully to take my picture clarified that I was actually on Winter Solstice (5.11c). No wonder. After about ten more falls I finally pulled it. Kept my record intact, still never led 5.11 without falls, usually lots of them.
(This post was edited by jorgegonzalez on Aug 19, 2011, 9:19 PM)
20 years ago, I was stationed in Japan in US Navy. I was out on liberty climbing, like I always did. Well one day I did not pay attention to what I was doing, in other words I did not double check myself. I found myself looking up sixty feet up the rock gasping for air after hooking into my rap wrong, if it was not for my friend I think I would have bin paralyzed. I have two rods six fused vertebra, and two reconstructed heels. I spent 8 months in recovery and the only thing I thought of when I was in was How eeefffiiinnnggg stupid I was, if only I double checked my rope, so when I got out I was determined to correct this mistake, and I did. I am still climbing, not as much as I would like to but I still am. I don't know if it was because I was so young that I did not think of the fall but at the time it did not phase me, it was a mistake and for some reason I was alive. Mind you over the years I have had to fight the dreams of it, but I keep pushing on.
One problem I see with your backup is that it only keeps you from hitting the ground. Hopefully this means that there is nothing else to hit on the way there.
I'd say tie knots a safe distance above any features you pass. So far I've only had to worry about the ground.
Dear Miles,
milesenoell wrote:
That could definitely be a factor. I've never taken anything beyond the introductory 15 minute belay lesson at a gym on my first day of climbing. I've never had a mentor, and don't even have any regular partners. The vast majority of my climbing has been done alone. The only significant addition to being self taught has been information gleaned from reading books or on climbing forums.
They conclude that the root cause is that, in contrast to high performers, "poor performers do not learn from feedback suggesting a need to improve
But please, listen to the hard feedback of Mrs Gravity, and listen to the feedback here and improve your system.
(btw. all this is meant with the greatest respect and in effort to keep you permanently from decking/injury - or to keep your son from loosing his father!)
I decked last week top roping the bouldery start to a route. With rope stretch i fell far enough to hit my butt on a boulder, fortunately the rope slowed me down enough so it didn't hurt.
thats a hard one ... do you prestretch the rope with a lot of tension, in which case you arent really sure if yr able to do the moves on lead ... risk a TR "decking" with stretch .... or just say eff it and lead it with the first piece/bolt preclipped to avoid rope stretch ... or go out and spend $$$ on static ...
i witnessed a group climbing exasperator who linked 2 60m ropes with a double fishermans so they could TR that classic 2 pitch crack in one go ... needless to say you dont fall in the first 20 feet or so ...
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