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TheNags
Aug 22, 2011, 4:34 AM
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Hi, I am making the transition from sport to trad (I felt like I needed a strong base before starting trad), and I was wondering if there are any books that you might recommend to someone who is stepping through the door. I have a few people who have offered to show me the ropes (all experienced trad climbers) and show me how to place gear and build anchors. I just want to do as much research early and make sure I am solid on theory. Thanks in advance! take care and climb safe!
Steve
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technogeekery
Aug 22, 2011, 5:05 AM
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John Long & Bob Gaines - Climbing Anchors (2nd edition)
Andy Tyson & Molly Loomis - Climbing Self Rescue: Improvising Solutions for Serious Situations
Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills
All of those should help you with the theory side of things. Have fun, and choose your mentors well :-)
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TarHeelEMT
Aug 24, 2011, 1:37 AM
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John Long - Climbing Anchors
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jacques
Aug 24, 2011, 3:11 AM
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TheNags wrote: I have a few people who have offered to show me the ropes (all experienced trad climbers) and show me how to place gear and build anchors. I just want to do as much research early and make sure I am solid on theory. Thanks in advance! take care and climb safe! Steve
I think that reading a book like a school document before an exam is not good in trad. Conditionning, the learning process by which the behaviour of an organism becomes dependent on an event occurring in its environment, like clipping a bolt or doing a route by memorisation of the hole, is not good in trad. You have to have a deep understanding of the technique. For me, I onsight 5.10 pratically every where, I prefer to go with my stronger friends, climb a route and, as I come back, read in a book what I had done and try to find alternative to be more secure. In that way, you are not conditionning your mind with one good solution. but in a cliff, you will be conditionning to think at many good solution
The danger of conditionning in trad is not documented.
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TheNags
Aug 24, 2011, 4:07 AM
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I understand what you are saying, and couldn't agree more, however I think you are misunderstanding why I want advice on good books. I don't intend to do my "learning" from them, I just want to have some background information, as well as a decent knowledge base before I start. For instance, I don't intend on using books alone to learn how to build good anchors, I want to take the lessons learned from experienced climbers, and use the books to supplement them and fill in any gaps that may exist. I appreciate your comment, and definitely agree with your point of view. Hopefully this puts your mind a little more at ease with my book request. Take care and climb safe.
Steve
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jacques
Aug 24, 2011, 1:40 PM
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Understand your point of you. I can sugest you to read book from english man who climb a 8 000meter. Generally, they explain how and why they had begin to climb and you will have the mentality of those very good climber. I have some in my mind, (conquerant de l'inutile, premier de corde, Reynold Mesner) but they are wrote in french or german.
One point I like fron those climber it is that they don't climb like we work at a job, They climb because the mountain is there, they climb to relax.
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jktinst
Aug 24, 2011, 4:58 PM
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I’m surprised that no-one’s mentioned Craig Luebben’s « Rock Climbing Anchors: A Comprehensive Guide » yet. It’s an excellent complement to the Long+Gaines 2nd edition. Of course the two overlap considerably on all the basic stuff so you may want to see if you can get them from a library or buy one and borrow the other from a friend.
The L+G has all those test results on the effectiveness of equalization for different rigging methods for multi-pro anchors. I found those to be quite an eye-opener. Luebben explores a greater variety of rigging options, which I also found quite useful. However, for a beginner, this variety could be a bit bewildering, especially since many of the options described are more illustrations of possible rigging approaches rather than recipes to be learned by rote. Finally, as the titles of these two books indicate, their focus is on anchors, which is only part of what you need to know. Another important part is the self-rescue techniques. The 2nd book mentioned by technogeekery is excellent for that but, of course, also gets into fairly advanced techniques, which can be confusing to a beginner. Just like you can’t learn to place pro, build multi-pro anchors, etc. without starting small, building up to the more complex stuff and practicing a lot, it’s the same with the self-rescue techniques. A good teacher will insist that you be proficient with a minimum of these techniques before taking you along on a climb (assuming that you’re already proficient with rappelling using an autoblocking back-up).
All in all, it seems to me that a pretty effective strategy might be to start with the basic stuff (in either one of the two anchors books and in the self-rescue book) in parallel with practicing on the ground and getting all the instruction you can from experienced and safe teachers on real climbs. In a second phase, you can get into the advanced parts of all three books and also read up on appropriate RC.com and Supertopo threads. Lots of good info to be had there but you have to pick and choose.
… Or you could register for a formal course…
Anyway, whether you’re reading a books, taking a course, getting tutored by a buddy or plowing through old threads, hang on to your critical thinking cap.
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njrox
Aug 24, 2011, 7:25 PM
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jktinst wrote: I’m surprised that no-one’s mentioned Craig Luebben’s « Rock Climbing Anchors: A Comprehensive Guide » yet.
I have this book, and it's great.
Seek advice from experienced climbers and get hands-on instruction, of course. But this book is a good supplement.
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bearbreeder
Aug 24, 2011, 7:45 PM
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thirded ... its one of the easiest to understand books out there ...
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devkrev
Aug 24, 2011, 8:04 PM
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The Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Ilgner.
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oz120
Aug 25, 2011, 12:55 AM
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njrox wrote: jktinst wrote: I’m surprised that no-one’s mentioned Craig Luebben’s « Rock Climbing Anchors: A Comprehensive Guide » yet. I have this book, and it's great. Seek advice from experienced climbers and get hands-on instruction, of course. But this book is a good supplement.
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wonderwoman
Aug 25, 2011, 3:23 PM
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My personal favorite is Heidi Pesterfield's Traditional Climbing: Surviving the Learning Years:
http://www.amazon.com/...arning/dp/0899972551
I have probably referred back to this book more than any others on my shelf. The previously mentioned nominees are also good reads.
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jacques
Aug 25, 2011, 5:58 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: He is doing out-of-class reading to enhance his knowledge, and to perhaps gain the ability to know which questions he should be asking. You agree, that this is important for a beginner, non? Oui.cool])
Conditionning is also important. In my post, I gave a definition of conditionning. One way to conditionne your mind is to read books to have a previous stimulation of what to do in a given circonstance.
I suggest to learn in the field. To learn the stimulation and to decide after what to do by using logic and references. So, conditionning a climber to see and avoid a danger is for me more important than reading a book before a climb.
I read many version of mountaineering freedom of the hill. the old one try to describe all the possibility for a climber to avoid a danger. The recent one try to say that one technique is better than the other: the good technique.
Knowledge: yes,
Conditionning? You think that I learn that in a book before I learned to climb.
(This post was edited by jacques on Aug 26, 2011, 1:45 AM)
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TheNags
Aug 26, 2011, 4:23 AM
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Just to make this clear... I am reading in order to get a better grasp on BASICS. I am not intending to lead anything or place gear on a climb without the teaching/advice from a seasoned trad climber. I want to read some books to get a good basis for what questions to ask, and to supplement the knowledge I retain from my more experienced partners. just and FYI to anyone concerned, I am not planning on reading then leading, I am planning on reading and then learning from better/more experienced climbers and combining the two to start trad climbing. this is a thread for recommended books for trad beginners, not for what your personal opinion is on how someone should begin trad. thanks for all the good replies, and please keep this OP oriented.
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jacques
Aug 26, 2011, 4:46 AM
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TheNags wrote: I am not planning on reading then leading, I am planning on reading and then learning from better/more experienced climbers and combining the two to start trad climbing. .
and when a confrontation exist between the book and the "more experience climber". when a leader do think that are not "by the book" Who is going to win?
Many leader don't want to climb with newby in trad because, at the end, the beginer told the experience climber what to do.
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wonderwoman
Aug 26, 2011, 2:07 PM
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TheNags wrote: Just to make this clear... I am reading in order to get a better grasp on BASICS. I am not intending to lead anything or place gear on a climb without the teaching/advice from a seasoned trad climber. I want to read some books to get a good basis for what questions to ask, and to supplement the knowledge I retain from my more experienced partners. just and FYI to anyone concerned, I am not planning on reading then leading, I am planning on reading and then learning from better/more experienced climbers and combining the two to start trad climbing. this is a thread for recommended books for trad beginners, not for what your personal opinion is on how someone should begin trad. thanks for all the good replies, and please keep this OP oriented.
I know, it's as if people think that you're going to spontaneously combust just from reading a book. When I was new, I read everything that I could get my hands on. It helps you begin to understand the basic concepts. You're doing the right thing!
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pdpcardsfan
Aug 26, 2011, 2:26 PM
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I also like to read accident reports, They usually tell you what whent wrong and why, and how to avoid the same situation.
I'm a new sport to trad convert and try to read everything I can get my hands on.
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wonderwoman
Aug 26, 2011, 2:38 PM
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pdpcardsfan wrote: I also like to read accident reports, They usually tell you what whent wrong and why, and how to avoid the same situation. I'm a new sport to trad convert and try to read everything I can get my hands on.
Have you seen the 'near miss' thread in Incidents and Accidents?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
It's pretty interesting and just seems to be getting longer.
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olderic
Aug 26, 2011, 3:09 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: I know, it's as if people think that you're going to spontaneously combust just from reading a book. When I was new, I read everything that I could get my hands on. It helps you begin to understand the basic concepts. You're doing the right thing!
Its a little known fact that reading books was the trigger that caused many of the Spinal Tap drummers to spontaneously com-bust.
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 26, 2011, 3:13 PM
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olderic wrote: wonderwoman wrote: I know, it's as if people think that you're going to spontaneously combust just from reading a book. When I was new, I read everything that I could get my hands on. It helps you begin to understand the basic concepts. You're doing the right thing! Its a little known fact that reading books was the trigger that caused many of the Spinal Tap drummers to spontaneously com-bust.
Which is why, being a drummer myself, that I have not read anything since seeing that movie. It had not hurted me none at all. 
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 26, 2011, 3:21 PM
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jacques wrote: TheNags wrote: I am not planning on reading then leading, I am planning on reading and then learning from better/more experienced climbers and combining the two to start trad climbing. . and when a confrontation exist between the book and the "more experience climber". when a leader do think that are not "by the book" Who is going to win? Many leader don't want to climb with newby in trad because, at the end, the beginer told the experience climber what to do.
I am confused Jacques. Are you advocating that he not read a book? At NO point did he ever say that he was relying on a book for his safety. He is merely supplementing his knowledge with practice with more experienced climbers. He is doing exactly what he should be doing, learning from different sources. I know plenty of "experienced" climbers who have bad habits or who lack knowledge in certain areas. There is also nothing wrong with confronting a climber with conflicting information. If said climber can explain why they do it one way when a book says something else, and it makes sense, then so be it. I have also run across climbers that do things "just because that's the way they were taught, and they don't know why."
Josh
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bearbreeder
Aug 26, 2011, 3:47 PM
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jacques wrote: and when a confrontation exist between the book and the "more experience climber". when a leader do think that are not "by the book" Who is going to win? Many leader don't want to climb with newby in trad because, at the end, the beginer told the experience climber what to do.
actually its getting gear stuck that many more "experienced" climbers are afraid with climbing with newbies ... and getting dropped
ive never once heard "oh he read a book so i wont climb with him" as a reason why some durty ole men doesnt want to train up some hawt yung belay slave ...
offer gas, free beer, and to replace any gear that gets stuck ... and an attentive newbie shouldnt have too many issues finding a durty ole man willing to teach him/her all the tricks
bivies optional ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Aug 26, 2011, 3:49 PM)
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jacques
Aug 26, 2011, 4:23 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I am confused Jacques. Are you advocating that he not read a book? [..] He is merely supplementing his knowledge with practice with more experienced climbers. He is doing exactly what he should be doing, learning from different sources.
a climber is merely supplementing his knowledge with reading book
versus
He is merely supplementing his knowledge with practice with more experienced climbers.
In the last sentence, that's means that the climber learn from book and use an experience climbers to supervise his leading, waist his time looking at him.
In the first sentence, a good leader will prepare his second to harder climb and will bring him in safety/technical problems. Without knowledge, the climber will seek for the information or give up. that will bring him to read more...or to arguing more??
I prefer a climber who supplement with book as he is not always arguing about what he didn't understand when I bring him over his limits.
Note that I don't argue with an experience climber, I say my opinion and wait to have a feed back. If he want me to make research to understand, I read book an accident in north america as well. I appreciate your comments. I think that the difference between supplement with book and supplement with experience climber his clearer.
Note 2 I also read some technique two or three time and never understand it. When I have to solve the problem, I can not make it because I didn't have a deep understanding of the technique. Back to my house, I read the book again and now I know what to do...buut I am not strong enought to do it Ha Ha Ha
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blueeyedclimber
Aug 26, 2011, 5:58 PM
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jacques wrote: I prefer a climber who supplement with book as he is not always arguing about what he didn't understand when I bring him over his limits. Note that I don't argue with an experience climber, I say my opinion and wait to have a feed back. If he want me to make research to understand, I read book an accident in north america as well. I appreciate your comments. I think that the difference between supplement with book and supplement with experience climber his clearer.
I never said argue, I said question. There is a BIG difference. You spend too much time on Rc.com. In the real world we don't argue that much. If I was a n00b, and a more experienced climber told me I should do something a certain way and then couldn't explain why when I questioned him/her, then I would be very suspect of it.
Josh
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