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JoeNYC
Sep 2, 2011, 3:52 AM
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What can you hold onto one handed? I am wondering if one hander dead hangs are a good test for how hard you can climb. It is certainly easy to test if you are near a hangboard or campus board.
I can half crimp the medium metolious rung for 5 or 6 seconds and I climb in the vicinity of v9 (out here anyhow).
What about you? I want to know who can get good time on the little rung or something similar, or who can barely hang onto a jug but climbs v4?
What'cha got?
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surfstar
Sep 2, 2011, 4:40 AM
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Pfft - hangs - HA. Try one arm, one finger pullups, then come back and spray.
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sungam
Sep 2, 2011, 10:43 AM
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Shoulder injuries? Yes please! Um num num num nom nom
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ghisino
Sep 2, 2011, 11:52 AM
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i can hang reasonably on a two-pad campus rung and can climb fb7b/c (V8/9) in a two/three sessions when everything comes together (good shape, head and conditions)
however, notice that i don't push one armed hangs very far, i find that good form (semi-bent arm, not spinning) is so crucial to my dodgy shoulders that when it comes to maximal hangs, i prefer to do asymmetric work, that's inherently more stable.
(or, more rarely, weighted work)
in that case i can hang 10" on something like a usual one-pad campus rung, with the pinky of my other hand on an hold at shoulder's height.
which suggests that if i wanted to pull one armed feats just for the sake of it, i shouldn't have huge problems hanging one armed from that 1-pad rung.
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JoeNYC
Sep 2, 2011, 2:12 PM
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Right on, I find that if i am spinning (and i care), having my other hand on the wall helps, however with a bit of shoulder and elbow flex, it isnt bad.
You (different guy) are really going to injure yourself attempting one dead hang? Fragile dude...
A few hangs twice a once is all ill ever do, its a lot less goofy or tweaky than adding weight and doing double jumps like other bro's do.
In the end it is just a test, a feat to prove how good you are getting, so...
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ghisino
Sep 2, 2011, 3:27 PM
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well i'm convinced that i've *ruined* my two shoulders (conflict on one side, subluxation on the other) within a single season of one armed hang crazyness, so i might be overcareful.
I was overly interested in setting hangboard PR so i ended up hanging straight-armed (it is easier than keeping tension and allows you to hold someting smaller)
mind that when it really matters i am keen to take risks (pulling a bit too hard, training through pain, etc).
On at least a couple of occasions i even managed to get minor pulley tears exactly during the actual redpoint ascent. And proudly took it as the proof that the route/boulder was "truly at my limit"
it is just that in my scheme of things one armed hangs do not matter that much and i believe that i can get the same training stimulus in a safer way (asym)
(This post was edited by ghisino on Sep 2, 2011, 3:29 PM)
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rmsusa
Sep 2, 2011, 9:20 PM
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If you really, truly relax (not many people are able to) into a one arm dead hang, depending on your weight and the state of the tissues that hold the joint together, you can pull the joint apart.
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sungam
Sep 3, 2011, 8:07 AM
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JoeNYC wrote: You (different guy) are really going to injure yourself attempting one dead hang?
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flesh
Sep 4, 2011, 5:12 AM
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JoeNYC wrote: Right on, I find that if i am spinning (and i care), having my other hand on the wall helps, however with a bit of shoulder and elbow flex, it isnt bad. You (different guy) are really going to injure yourself attempting one dead hang? Fragile dude... A few hangs twice a once is all ill ever do, its a lot less goofy or tweaky than adding weight and doing double jumps like other bro's do. In the end it is just a test, a feat to prove how good you are getting, so...
It sounds like your comparing hanging one handed in a open crimp on a hang board to doing "double jumps" in terms of injury potential? "Like other bro's do"?
Based on experience and common sense, there's nothing more likely to get you injured that hanging one handed in a crimp position, except maybe the smallest mono you can hang all your weight off.
Hanging one handed in a crimp is FAR MORE Likely to get you injured that those double jumps so other bro's do. Simply because the crimp position is more stressful on your pulleys and knuckles and because your weight is disbursed between four fingers, not eight.
I did a hangboard workout today, my best was 23 seconds hanging from a one pad edge, open handed, one handed.
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JoeNYC
Sep 5, 2011, 6:18 AM
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That's impressive, one pad for 20+ seconds, What do you climb v12's 13's?...damn.
Anyhow, half (open) crimp is a lot different from a full crimp (really?...semantics?...ugh), its as close as you can get to open hand with 4 fingers, I honestly doubt it stresses the knuckles the same way a thumb over, Dave graham-like gnarly thing, does. Ben Moon and those other school room guys describe hanging in this position as neutral, that is, as a standard training position.
I suppose you could do some 3 finger open hangs to even it out. I've never thought to hang in a full crimp, even two handed, it would be a waste of effort.
Also, I think dropping down a rung with an extra 25lbs on your waist on a campus board puts some serious stress on you digits too; its all anecdotal though, not worth much more thought than that. I'll take my chances with a static hang over the jump however, so far i haven't felt a thing, whereas campus boarding has lead to sore elbows and sore digits.
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flesh
Sep 5, 2011, 5:34 PM
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JoeNYC wrote: That's impressive, one pad for 20+ seconds, What do you climb v12's 13's?...damn. Anyhow, half (open) crimp is a lot different from a full crimp (really?...semantics?...ugh), its as close as you can get to open hand with 4 fingers, I honestly doubt it stresses the knuckles the same way a thumb over, Dave graham-like gnarly thing, does. Ben Moon and those other school room guys describe hanging in this position as neutral, that is, as a standard training position. I suppose you could do some 3 finger open hangs to even it out. I've never thought to hang in a full crimp, even two handed, it would be a waste of effort. Also, I think dropping down a rung with an extra 25lbs on your waist on a campus board puts some serious stress on you digits too; its all anecdotal though, not worth much more thought than that. I'll take my chances with a static hang over the jump however, so far i haven't felt a thing, whereas campus boarding has lead to sore elbows and sore digits.
Whatever works for you. Using mutants as examples of climbers who can handle one handed open crimp hangs isn't representative of most folks. I climb with some mutants and what their bodies can handle is much different than most of us. Dave Graham and Ben Moon are definately mutants.
I want to emphasize to folks reading this that IMO there is absolutely nothing that is more likely to get you injured than one handed hangs in a crimp position. They definately get you stronger, I had to take off three years from a injury that was the result of this type of work out when I was 23.
Unless you know your a mutant, never do this, you'll know your a mutant when you can't figure out why everyone else is getting injured and you never are, when you climbing v10/5.14 and have never had an injury and you've been doing it for years.
It's not about whether its dynamic or static weighted or not weighted (im 6% body fat so I could argue that the weight im adding is the weight most people already have). Think about it in terms of the total amount of weight per finger and whether it's crimp or not. How many people get hurt in a crimp vs open handed? I don't have proof of this, but considering I've had 9 finger injuries and 8 of them we're from crimping one from a mono and 0 are from open handed climbing, do the math.
Joe, when I first started bouldering v9, I wouldn't have listened to me. Hopefully, you're a mutant.
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JoeNYC
Sep 6, 2011, 3:27 AM
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I've gotten a little lost at this point, but there are a few things i should say i guess, I didn't expect you to know so much about me and what I suggest without ever even hearing me say it...
I never recommended training one arm dead hangs, and even if I did, who cares?, its pretty obviously stressful and if you cant figure that out before you try it, then perhaps you need to be injured to learn. (To all those out there who are about to break pulleys trying to crimp on the small campus rung: "you will probably hurt yourself, please do not blame me") I am not your parent/coach/whatever, you don't have to do what i do.
Also, I am not a mutant, never was, I have bouldered for a pretty long time and have also had my share of injuries (perhaps ironically mostly due to campus boarding). I'm not in my twenties and I haven't just begun to climb v9. Sorry.
Finally, to reiterate, this was supposed to be a fun test of strength vs technique or whatever, not a diatribe about how easy it is to get injured.
I should've known better...
Anyway, nice chat.
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c22
Sep 6, 2011, 10:33 AM
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People are kinda pussies is the moral hear. If you want to get strong you have to train hard. If you're not strong enough that kind of training will hurt you. Also, fully relaxed dead hangs are monumentally harder than flexed ones. Also, duh, don't jump straight into one arm hangs/monos/321 training, you'll get hurt. That said, in my experience anyone who can legitimately hang a 3/4" campus rung for... lets say a 5 count, can probably climb at least V10. Then again, I know a couple guys who've climbed V12ish and can barely one arm the medium rungs, so it depends.
You may find this interesting as well: http://beastmaker.co.uk/?page_id=43
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sungam
Sep 6, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Ohhh, it's because I'm not strong enough that I popped a pully! Duh, if only I had known that I would have trained more!
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flesh
Sep 6, 2011, 4:24 PM
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It's fun to talk about the stupid human tricks, but we're on a forum where a thousand or more people might view this thread. When young, unexperienced climbers find out a way they can get stronger quickly they assume their bodies are invincible and do it. They don't have enough discipline many times to konw when it's okay and not okay to hang one handed in a crimp position, which for most, would be hardly ever.
I simply don't want them to get any bad ideas, that's where I'm coming from.
These stupid human trick competitions many times are what result in injury.
If you want to see a guy who can hang one handed in a crimp position forever, youtube, pro tips jared roth, it's ridiculous and it's exactly what almost no one should ever do. The guy weighs nothing. This was the kind of "PRO TIPS" that young climbers can't distinguish between.
(This post was edited by flesh on Sep 6, 2011, 4:27 PM)
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essay
Sep 6, 2011, 10:14 PM
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Flesh is a beast and I suspect he possess some of those super genetic,have you seen this lunatic's campus videos? Well done! What Flesh does not say is that every climber out there has had some sort of injury while training. It is very difficult to push yourself to the limit that it takes to improve and not rip a pully or develop tendonitis/tendonosis. That is why some people are mutant and the rest of us suck. So go for it, but be careful. Enjoy your injury, your gonna get one if you are serious about improving, welcome to the club.
10+ years ago an older sport climber asked me where my injuries were, I said I didn'thave any, he couldn't believe it. This was because I had not focused on getting stronger yet (aka hurting myself with purpose). Now I have an injury in four fingers, both elbows, both shoulders, both wrists, and my hip flexers. Now I climb 5.13 regularly.
I had another friend who told me when I complained of a finger injury (a world renowned pro) that it hurts to climb v10, so deal with it, it's my choice what I do with my life. If I didn't want the pain then I could go trad climbing, I didn't, instead I sent.
So, your training techniques might work, but I can guarantee that they will hurt, and they might tear your shit so bad you won't climb again ever. Your choice. How badly do you want to improve? If the answer is badly, get ready for some serious pain and injuries. Good luck.
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c22
Sep 8, 2011, 12:37 AM
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Exactly! =)
Also, people trying to downplay training methods for 'mutants', I hope you realize that climbing v10 definitely doesn't get you into the mutant category, and even at that level, one arm hangs can be a tremendous tool. They aren't party tricks, they're a solid element of elite training.
I don't really think this bares explanation, but Sungam, obviously it is that you need to train more. Just not as hard without being ready for it. I've seen even aberrantly fragile people build up to one finger pull ups. You can do it, it just takes some time and discipline. Injuries primarily result from poor training technique or serious bad luck.
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sidereus7
Sep 13, 2011, 8:10 PM
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Dead hangs are definitely dangerous for shoulders. Here's an excerpt from one of my favorite books on the topic:
In reply to: One danger is that the tendon connections at your shoulders - if you are hanging fully extended - have less strength than you can develop with your fingers. This means that as you hang to exhaustion on your fingertips, your body weight naturally sags to the tendon connectors at your shoulders; it is these connectors that risk separating.
The author recommends doing dead hangs with weights on the body so you drop faster and spend less time dropping weight into the shoulders. It seems like trying to hang on purpose for as long as possible is a fast track to injury.
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essay
Sep 23, 2011, 11:05 PM
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sidereus7 wrote: Dead hangs are definitely dangerous for shoulders. Here's an excerpt from one of my favorite books on the topic: In reply to: One danger is that the tendon connections at your shoulders - if you are hanging fully extended - have less strength than you can develop with your fingers. This means that as you hang to exhaustion on your fingertips, your body weight naturally sags to the tendon connectors at your shoulders; it is these connectors that risk separating. -- How to Rock Climb! by John Long The author recommends doing dead hangs with weights on the body so you drop faster and spend less time dropping weight into the shoulders. It seems like trying to hang on purpose for as long as possible is a fast track to injury.
injury and success. Suckers. Want some????
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seamus.dang
Jan 3, 2013, 9:11 PM
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I can hold open handed one arm hang on the nicros campus strips
<http://shop.nicros.com/index.php/campus-rungs-5-pack.html>
on a 20 deg overhung campus board for 5 seconds. I'm working my way to hanging more than 2 seconds on the small metolius campus rungs (3/4"). I personally think it makes you stronger, but it took a long time to get to this point (10+ years). Keep at it if you are psyched on it...just don't do dead hangs (bend your arm just a little, I hurt my shoulder dead hanging and doing leg lifts).
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seamus.dang
Jan 3, 2013, 9:17 PM
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While I bring this topic back up, can anyone share their one arm hang training routines (if you are into these).
I try to do 5 sets of repeaters (5 sec) on the big metolius campus rung, rest 2-5 min then repeat on the next smaller rung size, working my way down to the smallest metolius campus rung (15 sets total). It pretty short training, about 30min.
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Co1urzz
Jan 3, 2013, 9:20 PM
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i prefer one arm dead hangs on an open sloper type grip...usually a tree branch that is thicker than my palm.
one hand "crimp" doesnt sound smart at all, maybe if you had a custom grip to let the first digit of each of your fingers rest in a natural manner, maybe
open hand strength=real strength.
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