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qwert
Sep 18, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Last weekend i finally managed to get out again.
~4 hours approach
one of the few huts in the alps that are not full blown hotels
11 pitches
Thats all nice and good, but:
We knew that there where at max 4 pitons in the whole 11 pitches. And given that those where probably from 1921 (from the looks, they indeed where) a full trad rack was demanded.
And thats where the problems start. 11 pitches is not too much, and it was only 5.8 at max, but still we knew
a) we hat to be rather fast, because we did not want to get caught in the wall, or even at the descent by the forecasted thunderstorm
b) we didnt really have a clue what kind of gear we needed. Guidebook just said full rack of stoppers, cams and a bunch of slings
So we took 1.5 sets of nuts, and a full set of camalots from .3 to 2, with doubles for .75, 1 and 2, 8 slings/long QDs, bunch of 120cm slings, and a hand full of lockers and some assorted crap + emergency hammer+pitons, rain jacket, 1l of water per person, some granola bars, rainjacket and shoes for the descent.
Damn, that crap was heavy!
And in the way all the times!
And a bitch to manage on the harness!
And of those few pieces we needed we didnt have enough (hence at max we placed 3 pieces per pitch, but we didnt want to place much more anyways, since that would have slowed us down even more) and most of the stuff was useless anyways!
And when i read around here, it seems like this actually was a fairly minimal rack.
How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?
Are you all total super heros that dont mind the extra wheight at all?
Is 'trad' in fact a codeword for "hiking with the occasional steep step" and no one climbs harder than 5.8 anyways?
Or are the cliches true that all americans are in fact that fat that a few dozend extra pounds simply do not get noticed while you are landwhaling your blorted self up that multi day, with artificial oxigen 3 pitches 5.2 rx trad testpieces just right next to the NASCAR track?
I am demanding an explanation!
qwert
(This post was edited by qwert on Sep 18, 2011, 10:14 AM)
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JimTitt
Sep 18, 2011, 11:34 AM
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Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack!
I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc).
Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977.
On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup!
Jim
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socalclimber
Sep 18, 2011, 11:47 AM
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JimTitt wrote: Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack! I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc). Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977. On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup! Jim
Uh, well I can't agree with drilling the shit out of the route. Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.
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qwert
Sep 18, 2011, 12:05 PM
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JimTitt wrote: Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack! I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc). Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977. On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup! Jim
Pegs and hammer - the rock is a really slick Gneiss with lots of lichen, so pitons would have been the only option in case of a surprise rain.
And bolts? Well, that mountain is probably one of the few spots in the whole alps where you dont find a single bolt, and its supposed to stay that way!
qwert
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qwert
Sep 18, 2011, 12:09 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.
Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in.
But the question remains:
-how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them
-how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways
qwert
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socalclimber
Sep 18, 2011, 12:47 PM
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qwert wrote: socalclimber wrote: Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew. Nah, worked like a charm! Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in. But the question remains: -how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them -how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways qwert
Well, the route is definitely an alpine route. You could consider the link cams. A handful of those and some stoppers and slings would probably serve you well.
Great looking route by the way. Was it good?
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julio412
Sep 18, 2011, 2:01 PM
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Things have changed since the 20's Qwert.
For one, pitches were probably only like a 100'(30m)
So, you're only really looking at 5&1/2 pitches in today's world.
If you've ever climbed anything other than sport, well, you carry a rack... on a gear sling; pretty simple really, once you've done once or twice.
Also, you can carry a small pack; like a true mountaineer.
Oh, and by the way, Walter Bonatti died the other day, and no one, no one ,on rc.com, seems to care.
Who the hell are you?
M
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shockabuku
Sep 18, 2011, 2:04 PM
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Put the extra shit in a small pack and make the second carry it.
Otherwise yeah, shit is heavy and gets in the way. Some people like over the shoulder gear slings, some don't.
I don't carry a hammer or pins though - that steel shit is heavy.
And if you're only placing three pieces per pitch, don't bring as much. Certainly not all eight draws and a "bunch" of 120 cm slings. Probably not the redundant .75-2 cams.
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qwert
Sep 18, 2011, 2:28 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: qwert wrote: [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=5966;[/image] Looks sweet! Where is it?
In reply to: It sounds like you took a little too much for the alps
But it does not sound too much more than your rack!
In reply to: The tri-cams serve as doubles from a mid-sized stopper up to about the #2 cam.
socalclimber wrote: Well, the route is definitely an alpine route. You could consider the link cams. A handful of those and some stoppers and slings would probably serve you well. Great looking route by the way. Was it good?
Yes, the link cams would help with the "how the hell do i know which sizes i need the most" problem, but i am not really sure about their use for me, given that i climb limestone most of the time, where irregular placements that are rather bad for cams in general, and for links especially so, prevail!
But it was good anyways The climb was quite nice, as was the view, and that we didnt have hundreds of people around us was also a refreshing change. As i said, we managed without any problems, but this time i really realized that i took too much shit with me.
julio412 wrote: Things have changed since the 20's Qwert. For one, pitches were probably only like a 100'(30m) So, you're only really looking at 5&1/2 pitches in today's world.
In reply to: If you've ever climbed anything other than sport, well, you carry a rack... on a gear sling; pretty simple really, once you've done once or twice.
In reply to: Also, you can carry a small pack; like a true mountaineer.
In reply to: Oh, and by the way, Walter Bonatti died the other day, and no one, no one ,on rc.com, seems to care. Who the hell are you? M
Why do YOU not seem to care?
Who i am? Just a n00b who occasionally climbs around in the alps and the alb since about 10 years.
shockabuku wrote: And if you're only placing three pieces per pitch, don't bring as much. Certainly not all eight draws and a "bunch" of 120 cm slings. Probably not the redundant .75-2 cams.
Ironically the redundant cams where the most usefull pieces…
qwert
(This post was edited by qwert on Sep 18, 2011, 2:35 PM)
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qwert
Sep 18, 2011, 2:34 PM
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Oh, and i hope i do not come across as being a total clueless noob!
Somehow most of the answers are way to serious, considering that i thought that my OP had a rather sarcastic tone, aiming at all those "rack threads" and "what brand for a second set of cams", "how many of XX and YY do i need?" threads and those "i have doubles of XX and YY, and also triples of ZZ and some additional XY on my rack" statements that one encounters of this here site all the time, that imply (at least to my european brain) that most people do in fact carry racks all the time, to which our 1.5 sets of stoppers and sub double digits amount of cams with 8 draws/slings and some other stuff still seems rather minimal!
qwert
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potreroed
Sep 18, 2011, 2:57 PM
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Welcome to trad climbing. When you do enuff of it you learn to trim your rack to bare necessities and you get used to carrying all that gear, placing all gear, removing all that gear, re-racking all that gear, building your own anchors etc, etc. Makes you really appreciate sport climbing--especially here in Potrero Chico where you can climb big walls with a single rope and a dozen draws.
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sungam
Sep 18, 2011, 3:29 PM
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Looks like a fun route, brah.
But it sounds like you have not yet learned the art of tricking your partner into carrying everything 
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coastal_climber
Sep 18, 2011, 3:31 PM
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Go climb a wall, then you won't think that's heavy
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sbaclimber
Sep 18, 2011, 3:57 PM
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qwert wrote: In reply to: It sounds like you took a little too much for the alps Yeah, i figured that out too. But since we hadnt any beta besides "full rack", and we both arent too used to gneiss… But it does not sound too much more than your rack! In reply to: The tri-cams serve as doubles from a mid-sized stopper up to about the #2 cam. I wanted the tricams, but my buddy refused to take them with us!
No, you're right though, your rack wasn't much more than I would've taken. Trad climbing simply often requires taking that much with you. You will get used to it with practice. 
I was doing 25-30m pitches of 5.7-5.9 with the rack I described (+ 1x set of lowe balls) on granite-like rock on Tuesday, and I found it to be the perfect rack. It only felt heavy while I was flailing up the start of the 5.9...
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moose_droppings
Sep 18, 2011, 3:58 PM
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It's just part of the game when you climb routes with no beta.
I rope solo backcountry routes 90% of the time that haven't been done before by me or anyone as far as I know and carry almost as much as you guys did. One set of Met cams up to #8, set and a half of nuts, a couple of the larger hexes, 1-#2 pecker and 1 talon hook, 2 pink and red tricams, nut tool, belay device, cordelette, set of prusiks and a couple 4ft pieces of webbing, 8-2ft runners and 4-4ft runners and all my biners are as light as I can find, even lockers (all superfly's), which helps a little but it all still comes in a bit heavy.
I'd much rather have what is needed to succeed on these mystery routes than have to back off after the long walk to get to them. Your going to suffer some, no way around it in these circumstances. Harden the fuck up.
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rtwilli4
Sep 18, 2011, 4:19 PM
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I just finished a road trip and one of the main issues at first was the difference in how much gear my partner and I wanted to take. She routinely takes tripples of some pieces and also has two link cams, which are rediculously heavy and not really all that useful. She also hangs shoes, rain jacket, extra fleece layer, gloves and a pretty big camera off her harness! Every time she would start up a lead I would think to myself "man, it would suck to be loaded down like that."
On the gear side I ended up giving in most of time time and just taking the extra pieces along. Sometimes it allowed us to do longer pitches and we were at the Needles for the last part of our trip so doubles from .3 to 2 is pretty standard anyway.
The way I cut down on having shit on my harness is having a small pack where I keep my water, shoes, bars, rain shell, tiny tiny headlamp, etc. I hate having that crap on my harness.
Also, I take as few quickdraws as possible. I like having 6 to 8 dyneema shoulder slings each w/ a single biner. The dyneema is very light and you're saving half a pound in biners.
Lockers are something else I like to leave behind. I flew to CA and only took a select amont of gear so I took lockers, but usually you can get away with only having three total, supplimented by a few Heliums which are full size but much lighter. Deciding before hand that you will belay off your harness instead of using an autoblock saves you a locker and for most applications a wiregate is fine.
In your case it might have helped to have a few hexes instead of the doubles on cams but you said you used them so...
Anyways, I feel you... how the fuck do people carry all that shit! If you look at the SuperTopo rack suggesstinos some of them are a bit crazy. If I'm climbing below my limit (which I think you were) then I'm carrying more nuts/tri-cams and fewer cams. But if I'm on something near my limit I'll typically have at least as much gear as you did, minus the hammer and pins of course, that's overkill. You can almost always leave stoppers.
(This post was edited by rtwilli4 on Sep 18, 2011, 4:25 PM)
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6pacfershur
Sep 18, 2011, 4:37 PM
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heres my 50 cents worth....first, do a little more homework on what gear the route requires, guidebooks are just a start....second, americans are cam-crazy! most never learned chockcraft and hexes are the root of many n00b jokes; hexes are relatively light, inexpensive (no problem leaving them behind) and in my opinion, perfect for alpine rock
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Rudmin
Sep 18, 2011, 4:59 PM
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If the climbing isn't all that difficult, I figure I can always make do with the gear I have on me, so why not take less gear? four cams, eight nuts, 6 tripled up draws, maybe a double length piece of webbing.
If you never run out of your draws and biners, then you are carrying too many. If you are carrying more than twice as many pieces of protection as you have slings, then you are carrying too many.
If you run out of either runners or protection, then get creative or belay up your second. While simuling a ridgeline traverse, the second had all of the gear, so just draped the rope into a crack and jammed a rock on top to keep it from lifting out.
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bearbreeder
Sep 18, 2011, 5:10 PM
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12 draws/slings
1 set of link cams and blue/purple TCU (or swap with camalots) and MAYBE a #3 camalot
1 set of nuts
1 set of tricams
1 6 oz wind or rain shell
1 R1 style fleece
water depending on route
power bars
MAYBE 5 oz down jacket or 13 oz synth hoody
MAYBE a light bullet pack
first aid kit, matches
cell phone
the above will get me up the vast majority of 5.8 or less routes ... its actually overkill IMO as it gives double cams and nuts (tricams can be used as either) ...
you only need double cams at 5.10 or above IMO, or if the route specifically requires wide gear ... usually the stances are good enough at the lower grades to easily place and remove tricams/nuts
the tricams save a lot of weight ... a full set equivalent to the camalot 0.3-2 weight less than 400g
the other alternative is to use solely tricams, nuts and a few TCUs, i would do this for many of the 5.8 or below routes down here .... or even bring singles
if yr confident ... unless its sustained 5.8 climbing, and 5.8 trad is your limit, or its sandbagged to hell ... you place less gear and move faster
the people who move fast in squamish, and i suspect the rest of the world, simply put very little gear in except at the cruxes ... obviously there is a risk there .... i know people who do easy 18+ pitch 5.9 routes up the chief with no more than slings, 6 draws and a full set of nuts ...
the question to ask is did u place all that gear ... and if you did, did you really need to?
and make sure everything is as light as possible, im not a gram weenie ... but my 6 oz rain shell that replaced my 26 oz one means 4 #1 camalots or 1/2 liter of water ... etc ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 18, 2011, 5:37 PM)
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rtwilli4
Sep 18, 2011, 5:26 PM
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It all depends on the route. Like bearbreeder says, if you're not climbing at your limit then you don't need to place a lot of gear. I can't stand belaying somoene on easy ground only to watch them place a piece every 6 or 8 feet. Not only does it mean you have to carry more gear, but it takes more time to place that gear, takes even MORE time to clean it, and the more gear you place, the shorter pitches you must climb.
There can be a big difference in 5.8 and 5.9, but again I agree with bearbreeder. You don't need to be taking doubles in cams until you get into solid 5.10, where there aren't always good stances to fiddle with stoppers/tricams/hexes. On every 5.8 I've climbed and most 5.9's, even the hard ones, you are able to find stances that give you time to get in 100% bomber passive gear.
If you want to be protected every 6 feet from all of the "what ifs" then you should be sport climbing.
OP I know you understand this... I'm just sayin' it for others who may not.
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petsfed
Sep 18, 2011, 6:43 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: There can be a big difference in 5.8 and 5.9, but again I agree with bearbreeder. You don't need to be taking doubles in cams until you get into solid 5.10, where there aren't always good stances to fiddle with stoppers/tricams/hexes. On every 5.8 I've climbed and most 5.9's, even the hard ones, you are able to find stances that give you time to get in 100% bomber passive gear.
Maybe I just climb in a crack intensive area, but I've been on a fair number of 5.8s that lacked placements for passive gear at the sections where the climbing had good stances. So, at my local area, I do typically carry a double set of cams with just a single set of nuts.
That said, when I was climbing bigger alpine routes on a regular basis, we never packed anything bigger than a #3 camalot, carried singles from tips to hands, a single set of nuts, and no pins or hammers. On quartzite. Part of being effective in the alpine realm, part of keeping the weight down, is being comfortable with intentional runouts so you don't carry as much gear. 2-3 pieces in a 50m pitch is not so bad if it isn't the crux pitch.
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guangzhou
Sep 19, 2011, 1:39 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: Qwert wrote: In reply to: “Actually i had the cams on a sling, but there they where in the way even more, especially on the few low angle pitches.” The default in climbing long routes is the gear on a sling, but if it gets low-angle, switch the gear to the harness. When I started climbing all gear was on slings (1” tubular webbing), since we didn’t have harnesses but tied in directly into the rope with a bowline on a bight around the waist. On low angle stuff, we clipped the sling carrying the gear to a second sling over the opposite shoulder. The attachment was in the back. This kept the gear sling from hanging down and obscuring vision and being in the way in general. Like others have suggested Tricams work as great weight savers. Rob.calm
I personally around gear slings 90% of the time. Can't stand them. The best thing that ever happened to my climbing was changing where I carried my gear.
Like some have mentioned above, every area has different gear requirements. I've climbed some 5.11 pitches where all I placed was nuts and some 5.8 pitches where I couldn't find a nut placement anywhere.
I agree that some people are to quick to use cams instead of nuts, but I also understand the logic of placing cams over nuts to move quickly. Personally, I can place nuts just as fast as cam in most cases, the placement directs. I feel better 40 feet above a well placed nut than I do 40 feet above and equally well placed cam. I know both will hold, but I love nuts and hexes.
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dan2see
Sep 19, 2011, 2:23 AM
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qwert wrote: ... How the fuck do you climb with all that shit? ... qwert
Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. 
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