|
climbingtrash
Sep 19, 2011, 2:45 AM
Post #26 of 49
(8170 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2006
Posts: 5114
|
dan2see wrote: qwert wrote: ... How the fuck do you climb with all that shit? ... qwert Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. 
Does this phucking PTFTW piss you oft too?
Climbing with a heavy rack is just what you do...or run it out a lot. A standard Zion free rack can get pretty heavy, especially if you're doing a route with a pitch of off-width.
(This post was edited by climbingtrash on Sep 19, 2011, 2:46 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Sep 19, 2011, 4:15 AM
Post #27 of 49
(8149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
I've settled on an approach a bit different than what many folks seem to be saying, which is to pare things down.
Unless I'm climbing on a specialized route that needs a lot of pieces of the same size, I have a standard rack I use on everything---no editing at the start of the pitch---and it isn't all that different from the one you described, qwert.
If it is heavy and clumsy, I got used to that years ago; now it is like a comfy old pair of jeans, I barely notice it, I'm used to its tricks and annoyances, I know where everything is and what I'll use.
True, on many pitches I end up with much of the rack still with me, but on the other hand it isn't at all unusual to use up some of the doubles. Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.
So my answer isn't to get rid of this or substitute that. Your rack isn't exactly what i might have brought, but it sounded reasonable. I think the trick is to get used to it.
|
|
|
|
|
dan2see
Sep 19, 2011, 4:18 AM
Post #28 of 49
(8148 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2006
Posts: 1497
|
climbingtrash wrote: dan2see wrote: qwert wrote: ... How the fuck do you climb with all that shit? ... qwert Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. Does this phucking PTFTW piss you oft too? Climbing with a heavy rack is just what you do...or run it out a lot. A standard Zion free rack can get pretty heavy, especially if you're doing a route with a pitch of off-width.
No I have not visited Zion, or Yosemite, or the Alps.
But I play and explore a lot in the Canadian Rockies, so I do have experience hauling a heavy load up a steep mountain. Of course there's a limit to my strength and endurance, so my experience includes managing weight, logistics, and itinerary.
My favourite trick is to get as far and high as I can, stay there overnight, then the next day continue as ultra-light as possible. I've done this for climbing, scrambles, and just fun exploring.
But in any public place, I say rude is rude, so my post stays.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Sep 19, 2011, 4:42 AM
Post #29 of 49
(8142 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Heavy rack?! that's nothing.
Heavy is a full aid rack. What you described is a standard rack for many many locations and a light rack for others.
Look at it this way, if more "new wave" climbers tried to climb a classic route with what the FA's used they'd piss their pants... if the same climber's tried to climb a new route established ground up (classic style) with what the FA's carried they'd either piss their pants or claim their rack was too heavy to succeed on the climb.
Real climbers get used to it. sometimes it's heave, sometimes it's bold, sometimes it's just real and nothing else matters.
|
|
|
|
|
qwert
Sep 19, 2011, 12:16 PM
Post #30 of 49
(8107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2004
Posts: 2394
|
Rudmin wrote: If you never run out of your draws and biners, then you are carrying too many. If you are carrying more than twice as many pieces of protection as you have slings, then you are carrying too many.
Part of me says that those are indeed wise words of a minimalist, but the other part screams "How the intercourse am i supposed to built a safe belay when i don not have anything left on my harness!"
In reply to: If you run out of either runners or protection, then get creative or belay up your second. While simuling a ridgeline traverse, the second had all of the gear, so just draped the rope into a crack and jammed a rock on top to keep it from lifting out.
This climb there where only 2, both of wich had to be improved with nuts and/or cams.
rgold wrote: Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.
But 6 pieces as standart? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.
the_climber wrote: Heavy rack?! that's nothing. Heavy is a full aid rack. What you described is a standard rack for many many locations and a light rack for others.
In reply to: Look at it this way, if more "new wave" climbers tried to climb a classic route with what the FA's used they'd piss their pants...
When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that
But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?
Damn, thats gnarly!
qwert
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Sep 19, 2011, 1:25 PM
Post #31 of 49
(8092 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
qwert wrote: rgold wrote: Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently. Yes, the belays are a "problem". Thats in fact the places where we used up most doubles, and no, rocks often where simply not an option, unfortunately. But 6 pieces as standard? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.
|
|
|
|
|
colatownkid
Sep 19, 2011, 1:25 PM
Post #32 of 49
(8088 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 512
|
qwert wrote: rgold wrote: Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently. Yes, the belays are a "problem". Thats in fact the places where we used up most doubles, and no, rocks often where simply not an option, unfortunately. But 6 pieces as standart? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.
If I can be so bold as to put words in rgold's mouth, I believe what he meant is that on a trad route without bolted belays, for any given pitch except the first, there will at some point be two belays established simultaneously, one at the top of the pitch and one at the bottom. Therefore, if you assume a 3-piece anchor for each belay, you need at least 6 total pieces just for the 2 belays.
|
|
|
|
|
Rudmin
Sep 19, 2011, 1:35 PM
Post #33 of 49
(8082 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606
|
If you are on a ridge where you are slinging a lot of features, how about belaying off them as well? Use your rope to tie a ginormous eight on a bight and toss that over a solidly planted boulder. Cinch it tight and you've got a pretty truck gearless anchor. Or weave the rope around and tie a bowline on a bight and belay off of the tail loop.
If you don't have enough gear to make an anchor, consider finding a well-braced sitdown stance and counting that as one of your pieces. Belay off your harness with the other gear giving you a little bit of tension.
|
|
|
|
|
rsmillbern
Sep 19, 2011, 2:04 PM
Post #34 of 49
(8072 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 319
|
qwert wrote: Unless you are talking about "new wave aid", i fully agree with that! When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that
But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster? Damn, thats gnarly! qwert
If you took 5 mins off every pitch that would be nearly an hour. I know that when I climb with most people we could save 5 mins at each belay pretty easy, with the exception of 1 partner that never takes even 5 minutes to change belays. Add to this less time placing pro assuming the stories run-outs and I think one might be able to get time down...
Note: I am talking only from my experience as I, obviously don't know how you climb and change belays :-). For myself, I always carry too much gear and place all that I can ;-)
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Sep 19, 2011, 2:14 PM
Post #35 of 49
(8065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
qwert wrote: But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?
That's just inexperience talking. As you learn the rock type, you'll be able to find placements and holds faster, and so will your partner. Also, better rope-management techniques help a lot. When I was climbing up in the Snowies (a nearby mountain cirque), we took 4 hours to climb a 300m route because we didn't know what we were getting into, carried too much, and didn't have our systems dialed. The next week, when I went up with a different partner, we climbed the same route in half the time, and it snowed on us.
Also, pay attention during the belay changeovers. If you need to restack the rope, if the second is taking longer than just long enough to catch their breath, you'll lose a lot more time than you think. Have the mentality of "the way off is up" and you'll move faster in everything you do. We used to say, about a pitch off the ground "lets get off this thing", and we didn't mean lets go down. That mentality is incredibly valuable.
I'd say that bringing the pin hammer was the most obvious symptom of what you did wrong: you expected that failure should be fairly consequence free. Get yourself well and truly committed and you'll move faster.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Sep 19, 2011, 3:10 PM
Post #36 of 49
(8046 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
petsfed wrote: qwert wrote: But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster? Also, pay attention during the belay changeovers. If you need to restack the rope, if the second is taking longer than just long enough to catch their breath, you'll lose a lot more time than you think. Have the mentality of "the way off is up" and you'll move faster in everything you do. We used to say, about a pitch off the ground "lets get off this thing", and we didn't mean lets go down. That mentality is incredibly valuable.
One of my occasional partners taught me that nobody's hands should be idle at the belay. This is probably best accomplished with some prior coordination between the partners about who is doing what.
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Sep 19, 2011, 3:24 PM
Post #37 of 49
(8040 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
qwert wrote: ::snip:: How the fuck do you climb with all that shit? ::snip::
If my large out of shape ass can lead 9's and 10's on trad with big rack a rock star like you should be able to as well. 
You're just weak. 
|
|
|
|
|
darkgift06
Sep 19, 2011, 4:48 PM
Post #38 of 49
(8022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 16, 2009
Posts: 492
|
I agree, I'm also large & out of shape & can still lead 9's & 10's with all that crap. a good idea is to have the 2nd carry the pack, & clip your water to your harness. Also look up at the pitch & read the topo & see if you really need to carry that #4 & 3 with you on that pitch, maybe you could get the 2nd to bring it up until you get to a pitch where you need it.
|
|
|
|
|
tolman_paul
Sep 19, 2011, 6:42 PM
Post #39 of 49
(7996 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 22, 2005
Posts: 385
|
That really doesn't sound like that heavy of a rack.
The real question is, which pieces of gear did you find superfulous? If you used everything on the rack, then it wasn't too heavy of a rack.
|
|
|
|
|
chadnsc
Sep 19, 2011, 9:19 PM
Post #40 of 49
(7968 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 4449
|
darkgift06 wrote: I agree, I'm also large & out of shape & can still lead 9's & 10's with all that crap. a good idea is to have the 2nd carry the pack, & clip your water to your harness. Also look up at the pitch & read the topo & see if you really need to carry that #4 & 3 with you on that pitch, maybe you could get the 2nd to bring it up until you get to a pitch where you need it.
Wait, you're large and outa shape, and your name is Chad!?!?
Brother?
|
|
|
|
|
ladyscarlett
Sep 25, 2011, 8:08 PM
Post #41 of 49
(7859 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 376
|
Heh, I don't know about all the big hardmen around here, but YES...how DO people lug all that gear around?!?
The few routes I've done, I've lugged it with a lot of sweat and panting, and not a little wheezing. Having the gear on my harness makes climbing and scrambling easier (I suspect due to weight distribution and girly hips). I am learning the flexibility of gear sling.
I'm a fairly big girl (and beginning leader) and my general multi-pitch (beginner) routes put the rack at about 25% of my weight exclusive of personal stuff (water, layers, food, inebriating liquids). I'm not sure if this 'normal' or correct, but it's reality. I suspect that's what rack weight is about...reality. I'm learning the ways of lightening up, and it's helpful, but noticing it's a very circumstance specific art. "It depends".
With a heavy rack, my climbing itself becomes much more body involved. I use my butt, hips, shoulders, elbows, and the rest of my body A LOT. Much more than following or climbs where I'm rack-less.
I view rack weight like my muffin top. I can slim it down, but the reality is that it'll always be more than I really want to carry in weight.
How do I climb with all the heavy crap? Long, slow, and sweaty...
Many people call that fun. I can't seem to stop...and hopefully one day I'll do it fast, long, strong, with only the lightest sheen of sweat!
Good luck and hope you share some secrets as you discover them!
2p, cheers
LS
|
|
|
|
|
dagibbs
Sep 29, 2011, 7:12 PM
Post #42 of 49
(7709 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 921
|
Yup!
And, when you take of the rack to do a nice bit of top-rope or sport, you feel so LIGHT and FREE.
Though, half the time I climb top-rope and sport with more junk hanging off my harness than I will actually need. It's just there, and it's still lighter than my rack (which I carry shoulder-sling style), so I barely notice it. When I do, I just label it "training weight". ;)
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Sep 30, 2011, 2:52 PM
Post #43 of 49
(7634 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
rsmillbern wrote: qwert wrote: Unless you are talking about "new wave aid", i fully agree with that! When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that
But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster? Damn, thats gnarly! qwert If you took 5 mins off every pitch that would be nearly an hour. I know that when I climb with most people we could save 5 mins at each belay pretty easy, with the exception of 1 partner that never takes even 5 minutes to change belays. Add to this less time placing pro assuming the stories run-outs and I think one might be able to get time down... Note: I am talking only from my experience as I, obviously don't know how you climb and change belays :-). For myself, I always carry too much gear and place all that I can ;-)
Don't forget to leave time for smooching. 
Although, I climb mainly with my wife, so YMMV
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
damienclimber
Oct 6, 2011, 11:25 PM
Post #44 of 49
(7506 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2011
Posts: 313
|
qwert wrote: socalclimber wrote: Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew. Nah, worked like a charm! Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in. But the question remains: -how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them -how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways qwert
You forgot your Llama !
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Oct 7, 2011, 12:29 AM
Post #45 of 49
(7502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
Sounds like a pretty standardish rack to me. Of course, if all you have been doing is sport climbing it's going to feel heavy.
For long routes with a long approach, I like to have packs on both climbers to distribute the non-climbing gear like water and hiking shoes. If it's a harder route this might not be ideal.
Quickest way to lighten the rack is to make sure you're on all lightweight wiregate biners. Second is to leave the bigger pieces behind if possible. Easy route? More stoppers.
Use this one as a learning experience, see what you didn't need and cut it out.
|
|
|
|
|
boadman
Oct 12, 2011, 8:23 PM
Post #46 of 49
(7350 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 726
|
qwert wrote: JimTitt wrote: Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack! I couldnīt take that much gear as I havenīt got that much, Iīd use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc). Pegs and hammer, havenīt carried them since about 1977. On the other hand maybe youīre weak! Normally along with the above Iīd be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and thatīs the light and fast setup! Jim You are a brit in germany, so you are not really the person i am trying to get answers from. Pegs and hammer - the rock is a really slick Gneiss with lots of lichen, so pitons would have been the only option in case of a surprise rain. And bolts? Well, that mountain is probably one of the few spots in the whole alps where you dont find a single bolt, and its supposed to stay that way! qwert
The real answer is that you're weak, and a sissy.
My standard alpine rack is 1 set of nuts, 10 trad draws, .75-3 bd c4, and maybe a couple of lockers.
|
|
|
|
|
cuchulainn1856
Mar 31, 2013, 7:13 PM
Post #47 of 49
(6232 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2007
Posts: 31
|
I'd say probably just grow some balls, shut up and train harder.
|
|
|
|
|
justroberto
Mar 31, 2013, 11:40 PM
Post #48 of 49
(6182 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876
|
cuchulainn1856 wrote: I'd say probably just grow some balls, shut up and train harder.
Finally! We've all been waiting a year and a half for someone to say that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
