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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 4:40 AM
Post #26 of 39
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TarHeelEMT wrote: Kartessa wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence). So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay? It depends... and I didn't want to get into every possible use case. However, with absolute first timers and no other experienced people, I always climb with the mental attitude that I am soloing the route. Mental attitude? Why not actually solo the climb then and simply bring a tag line to belay up your newer climber? I thought that's why you bring the grigri? The first time my girlfriend lowered me on a grigri was one of my scariest moments in climbing.
A PTFTW makes someone lowering on a grigri for the first time much less scary.
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jjones16
Oct 13, 2011, 2:57 PM
Post #27 of 39
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First, you don't have to lead a route to clean the anchors; as your first sentence implies. Second, it should be clearly established before you take someone out what the expectations are of both the more experienced person, and the noob. Getting this straight before the trip will save oodles of headache. Does the person want to learn to clean? Are they capable of learning? Is there easy top access where someone can direct them through the process safely from the top? Are you qualified to teach them? If they get up there, freak out from being suspended by a PAS/sling/rope whatever (I've seen this happen often and it always amazes me that people will climb and fall on anchors but freak out where their static body weight is suspended on them) are you prepared to clean all day? If they can't lead are you prepared to lead all day? These are all pertinent questions that should be addressed and answered clearly before you go out.
Also, as someone else stated, it will be far quicker for you to lead and clean routes than it will be for you to teach them that day. However, with that being said, if you're going to be climbing with that person regularly and you're developing them as a partner, teaching them, although painstaking and time-consuming will pay off in the future. Just be safe about it, and don't take any shortcuts.
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ckirkwood9
Oct 13, 2011, 5:12 PM
Post #28 of 39
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
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***JJones16 good response***
Setting expectations will make it a better experience for all. I think many members of this site forget what it was like to be a newbie.
Remember, if you will, the first time you got on the wall... and just how overwhelming it can be at times.
Most beginners SO much to deal with
- fear of heights
- fear of falling
- learning to trust the harness, the rope, the belayer
Why throw additional things at them like cleaning gear.
Sure it's easy to an experienced climber because they've already learned
to overcome the challenges that a beginner faces.
A climber who suggests that it's 'easy' to clean gear for someone who's
learning how to overcome the many mental hurdles that climbing presents
probably shouldn't be taking on the role of instructor.
BESIDES flip around your thinking to the positive ~ if you have to clean the route you've lead ~
that means you get to climb each route twice. BONUS!
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jjones16
Oct 13, 2011, 5:30 PM
Post #29 of 39
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Yeah, I kinda fall in that noob/experienced purgatory where I'm competent enough to teach basics but not so far removed from being a noob that I don't remember how tough it can be sometimes. If I can help someone new to it progress safely and efficiently, I'm happy to do it. It provides a safer and more fun experience for everyone. Thanks for the props ckirkwood9.
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kevthegerman
Oct 13, 2011, 5:47 PM
Post #30 of 39
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Registered: Dec 25, 2008
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please don't bring yourself or any of your NOOBS to texas area and climb.. out climbing is sensitive enough as it is and if you and your NOOBS smash to the ground at our crags you will most certainly have the closed down for us.. thanks... hey climbingtrash, hows it going??? even tho you are kind of a jerk, i still like your site..
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marc801
Oct 13, 2011, 6:44 PM
Post #31 of 39
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ckirkwood9 wrote: Remember, if you will, the first time you got on the wall... and just how overwhelming it can be at times. Most beginners SO much to deal with - fear of heights - fear of falling - learning to trust the harness, the rope, the belayer Why throw additional things at them like cleaning gear. Sure it's easy to an experienced climber because they've already learned to overcome the challenges that a beginner faces.
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ckirkwood9
Oct 13, 2011, 8:09 PM
Post #32 of 39
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Registered: Nov 10, 2004
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Agreed Marc801... the teacher shouldn't expect anything other than to have patience with the new climber. lol
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zakadamsgt
Oct 13, 2011, 8:29 PM
Post #33 of 39
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Posts: 110
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I wouldnt say they're being a sissy for not wanting to clean the anchors. A great deal of climbing accidents happen cleaning, rapping, or miscommunication on being lowered. I dont think anyone should do this until they are solid on the basic process and have learned it back and forth on the ground.
If you're looking for efficiency and speed, take your partner out, not a noob. Taking a noob out is about them, as you will inevitably spend most of the day pulling them up a route and coaching them.
Hopefully she's a cutie!
Z
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kevthegerman
Oct 14, 2011, 8:53 PM
Post #35 of 39
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Registered: Dec 25, 2008
Posts: 54
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"like"
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 15, 2011, 6:47 PM
Post #36 of 39
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cracklover wrote: Hmmm... It seems to me that properly and safely teaching someone to clean the anchors on a sport route (I don't know why we're all assuming that it is a sport route, since the OP didn't say so, but let's assume that is what he meant) will eat up as much if not more of your day as just cleaning the route yourself. So let the "guide for the day" decide which he'd rather do. If I were in the OP's position, I would make that choice based on what I saw from the n00b. It would be pretty clear, pretty quickly, if the n00b was excited to learn everything possible, and was hooked on climbing. In that case, I would take the time to teach her to clean and lower. If the n00b was just having fun and being kind of a child about it, just wanting to be entertained, I'd quickly clean the routes myself. And if the n00b seemed like she was just not that into climbing, again, I'd just clean the routes myself. But the OP is not me. The OP sounds like he's a n00b himself. In his case, the OP should be cleaning the routes. I really don't like the idea of someone who's only just barely learned a technique himself trying to coach an even n00bier person through a somewhat tricky process that can go very wrong very fast. Cheers, GO
I don't know why we're assuming the n00b is a female, either. 
Josh
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Kartessa
Oct 15, 2011, 7:11 PM
Post #37 of 39
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Registered: Nov 18, 2008
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blueeyedclimber wrote: I don't know why we're assuming the n00b is a female, either. Josh
Why else would someone go to all that trouble?
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ilikepargo
Oct 16, 2011, 3:42 PM
Post #38 of 39
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Registered: May 20, 2008
Posts: 133
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Wow.
Have you noticed that nearly everyone in this thread thinks you're impossibly foolish? Open your eyes. Look again. Notice it.
To even have a n00b give you a lead-belay on a gri-gri is a sketch proposal. The idea that a n00b should be expected to safely clean anchors is insane. If nothing else, climb the route twice. But even that is unsafe for you and unfair to your n00b. You need to either find a place where you can walk up to set TR or go with an additional experienced climber. Give your n00b time to watch and learn.
In meantime, I also hope that you don't climb near me. Unless you start taking safety more seriously, you will make a mess someday.
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jjones16
Oct 16, 2011, 4:36 PM
Post #39 of 39
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Registered: Aug 2, 2010
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I think your assessment is a little harsh. Don't climb near you? You know, there are safe methods of learning that don't involve "watching and learning". I propose to you that none of us ever learned to be proficient by just watching. Sure you learn, a little, but not like you would with hands on. You don't learn to belay a leader by watching someone else do it. You learn by belaying a leader. The same goes with rapping and cleaning. There are safe ways to let noobs have hands on. With belaying; that's easy. You just have someone back up the brake strand. If the noob screws up, belayer #2 has the rope. With rapping and/or cleaning, you can have someone at the top of the route to make sure they're either anchored or on belay 100% of the time. Totally safe. You can even back up the rappel twice. Once with a friction hitch, and again with a fireman's belay if need be. My point is that to suggest that no one take "noobs" out and let them do anything is kind of ridiculous. We were all noobs once, and would be still if we didn't have mentors to safely teach us the proper way to do things. Should we not let them tie in themselves either, in the event that they mess up the knot? No one expects a noob to "safely clean anchors". We, as the more experienced party ensure that it is a safe experience. How would you have felt if the first time you belayed a leader, some asshole came up to you and said "hey noob, sit this one out, just watch and learn, oh and by the way, if you must belay, please don't do so near me, you might make a mess." My guess is you wouldn't have liked that at all. No one would. Unless you came out of the womb knowing how to lead, clean and rappel, you're kind of being a hypocrite.
*edited for horrendous grammar
(This post was edited by jjones16 on Oct 16, 2011, 6:31 PM)
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