The difficulty I and many others have is the emphasis being on buddy-checks (which is clear from the number of previous posts) whereas the emphasis must be on self-reliance...beginner groups being taught to tie-in they check each others knots before they are even remotely competent to tie them which unconciously reinforces the reliance on others, leading to the ludicrous (and not so rare) situation that they lead their first route and can´t re-thread to lower because they aren´t sure of their knot...pressure on instructors to get the climber through the course and on the rock in the shortest possible time before the customers for this `adventure sport´ get bored...

I have never said don't do partner checks. But if you think that they are necessary then I question the your own competence and reliability.

That would be me... I can't check those knots, and in the few instances I've climbed with one who ties in with it, I can only ask them to double check it while I check their harness.



And question regarding checking your knot whilst making the first clip...

How are you clipping in if your knot isn't any good? I'm trying to imagine up on a route, placing a stopper, biner/draw, then reaching down to clip and noticing that your knot is fuxored... Clipping in and weighting an unfinished knot doesn't sound like a good plan.

One of the virtues of the rethreaded bowline is you will have checked the first knot when you thread back through again.

If you´re arriving at the first piece and you haven´t got anything to clip your harness into the gear then by definition a buddy check was rather irrelevant and needs to be expanded to cover a lot more than just the tie-in!

A healthy awareness of all the things around you and their potential to hurt is essential to climbing, learning safety rules by rote means anything outside of those rules is in danger of being ignored. Having a climbing partner who takes an alert interest in how you buckle your harness or tie-on amongst all the other things that we do is desirable but in no way a substitute for learning to do these things properly oneself.
As has been mentioned previously, your partner is not always with you and your survival depends on your own abilities and self-checks and this principle should never be diluted by learning to rely on an rule which is only sometimes effective.

A healthy awareness of all the things around you and their potential to hurt is essential to climbing, learning safety rules by rote means anything outside of those rules is in danger of being ignored. Having a climbing partner who takes an alert interest in how you buckle your harness or tie-on amongst all the other things that we do is desirable but in no way a substitute for learning to do these things properly oneself.
As has been mentioned previously, your partner is not always with you and your survival depends on your own abilities and self-checks and this principle should never be diluted by learning to rely on an rule which is only sometimes effective.

One of the virtues of the rethreaded bowline is you will have checked the first knot when you thread back through again.

If you´re arriving at the first piece and you haven´t got anything to clip your harness into the gear then by definition a buddy check was rather irrelevant and needs to be expanded to cover a lot more than just the tie-in!

Again... I agree that we need to know what we are doing, and we don't RELY on buddy-checks, but rather it is a form of redundancy that we can utilize when available, and it seems absurd, to me, to proactively discourage this, and to posit that a "better" way is to check your knot while up on a route.

2. Buddy checks... Why not? ...

I think these checks enforce that we are a team, they don't breed complacency. Usually when you catch something wrong with your partners gear the look on their face is oh crap dude I am so sorry. It's embarrassing to screw up with your friends life in your hands. It's never, haha man on belay have fun!

A long time ago I started to feel as though climbing wasn't that much fun. It's climbing with my friends that I really enjoy. As a result, when I head to the crag I don't expect them to be on their own. We take care of each other. I honestly wouldn't want to climb if the mentality at the cliff was more about we're both on our own, we just happen to be sharing gear today...

...I don't NEED a buddy check EVER. If I did then I shouldn't be climbing...

...Nobody is proactively discouraging buddy checks....

Why stop at buddy checks. Why not have a third party come in a check. Why not fourth person checks?

How is your buddy checking you better than you checking yourself a second and a third time? Would two self checks equal a buddy check? What about three?

I check everything I do. I then check it again. I don't NEED a buddy check EVER. If I did then I shouldn't be climbing.

Am I infallible? No. But my failings aren't things that a token buddy check will pick up on.

If I am THAT worried about "redundancy" then I would climb on two separate alternating single ropes with independent belayers and backup belayers. Sure we can always improve safety, but 'buddy checks' are well down the list for me.

Nobody is proactively discouraging buddy checks. And nobody is stating that a "better" way to check is up on a route.

I have a simple rule to check my own knot when I reach down to clip the first piece and consider this the best habit to get into.

...I refuse to teach partner check...

Ummm... We can say the same thing about the fig 8 rethread, so this isn't a valid argument, especially given that a rethread fig 8 yields a neat symmetrical knot that is easily checked, even by a n00b, where a rethread bowline doesn't yield a knot with any symmetry.

I don't understand your answer here as it relates to your 'best practice' of checking your knot when you reach down to grap the rope to clip in to the first piece en route. If you, doing your best practice, find that your knot is bad, what are you going to clip into while UP (meaning there is now a potential fall DOWN associated with a bad knot) on a route? That was the question I asked.


Again... I agree that we need to know what we are doing, and we don't RELY on buddy-checks, but rather it is a form of redundancy that we can utilize when available, and it seems absurd, to me, to proactively discourage this, and to posit that a "better" way is to check your knot while up on a route.

It is also easily recognisable as a bowline to any competent climber with a basic knowledge of knots.

Nobody is proactively discouraging buddy checks. And nobody is stating that a "better" way to check is up on a route.

You are correct in that I am actively against the teaching of the buddy check system as a primary safety goal in climbing, it is my opinion that it must be correctly put into the wider context of safety and not taught as a simpe, catch-all solution.

Clearly, according to the account above a culture which depends on buddy checking even involving climbing professionals has its drawbacks and is not 100% safe since nobody appears to have noticed the check was missed.

... I am actively against the teaching of the buddy check system as a primary safety goal in climbing...

... it must be correctly put into the wider context of safety and not taught as a simpe, catch-all solution.

...Clearly, according to the account above a culture which depends on buddy checking even involving climbing professionals has its drawbacks and is not 100% safe since nobody appears to have noticed the check was missed.

There are reasons on why planes come with two seats in the front and why two pilots are required on most flights

one guy is to check and another guy to double check

both flying and climbing have one thing in common

gravity is their biggest enemy

The first clip is the first time your knot (good or bad) will be of any use to you and the first clip is the first opportunity you have to clip into the piece with the entire rest of your rack, sit back, reflect and make corrections. Or climb back down. This is better than checking the hard way at the top..

The difference is that the pilot works very hard to learn the proper way to do things and does them without compromise less they die in a fiery crash. Climbers just go out and climb and many are not taught about how serious their inaction might be if they screw up.