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majid_sabet
Oct 24, 2011, 5:06 PM
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They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise.
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.html
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gmggg
Oct 24, 2011, 5:55 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.html
Hmm... I didn't know that the rap stations had been removed.
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wonderwoman
Oct 24, 2011, 6:04 PM
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Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again.
This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area?
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majid_sabet
Oct 24, 2011, 7:35 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again. This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area?
if a climber leaves his headlamp and a jacket behind to go for a day worth of climbing in any wilderness setting, I will name them ignorant cause too many of them been rescued for stupid thing
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mr_rogers
Oct 24, 2011, 7:52 PM
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gmggg wrote: Hmm... I didn't know that the rap stations had been removed.
There were rap stations on Moby Grape? I can't think of any after the triangle roof (end of pitch 2 or 3). Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of places to bail from, you'll just be leaving some gear behind.
Anyways, Moby Grape is awesome. The best multi-pitch 5.8 I've ever done. God, I love that climb. Ignore what wonderwoman says, the cliff is amazing and there's nothing to be....
OH SHIT!!!! ROCK ROCK ROCK !!!!!
*whew* ... that was close.... what was I saying?
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Gmburns2000
Oct 24, 2011, 8:15 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again. This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area?
Gotta admit, that has to be the first time I've ever seen someone ask why majid didn't put a story in the A&I forum.
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wonderwoman
Oct 24, 2011, 8:54 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Cannon is nothing to sneeze at. Lord knows, you'll never catch me on it again. This really belongs in A & I, along with most of your other posts. Did you not post it in there just so that you could call the climbers 'ignorant'? Do you know anything about Cannon or the general history / conditions / harsh weather of the area? if a climber leaves his headlamp and a jacket behind to go for a day worth of climbing in any wilderness setting, I will name them ignorant cause too many of them been rescued for stupid thing
How do you know that having a headlamp or jacket would have made any difference in whether or not they would have called 911? And again, are you just posting this here so that you can call climbers 'ignorant'?
Another report on NEclimbs says they got their rope stuck and were off route. Go to the left of Moby, and you're in aid climbing territory on wet rock.
Seems like you know nothing of the route or situation. Guess this thread is properly titled, after all.
And in NH, you have to allegedly pay for your rescues. Let's see how that pans out.
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Dip
Oct 24, 2011, 8:55 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: gmggg wrote: Hmm... I didn't know that the rap stations had been removed. There were rap stations on Moby Grape? I can't think of any after the triangle roof (end of pitch 2 or 3). Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of places to bail from, you'll just be leaving some gear behind. Anyways, Moby Grape is awesome. The best multi-pitch 5.8 I've ever done. God, I love that climb. Ignore what wonderwoman says, the cliff is amazing and there's nothing to be.... OH SHIT!!!! ROCK ROCK ROCK !!!!! *whew* ... that was close.... what was I saying?
I was just up Moby Grape for the first time two weeks ago. You are correct, the last rap station is above the triangle roof pitch, and that's on two questionable old pins. You are also correct that it's a flipping awesome climb.
I had an epic of my own running up it. Got behind some slow people, climbed too slow ourselves, were a little two fixated on getting up, ended up topping out at 11:45 p.m. Walked around the top of that bugger til 2:30 in the morning looking for the descent trail until we gave up and hunkered down behind a rock til daylight, at which time we stood up and were relieved/in disbelief to see the helipad 100 yards away.
From what i hear there are headlamps on that ridge every other weekend. Almost surprised search and rescue went after them as quick as they did.
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gmggg
Oct 24, 2011, 9:31 PM
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mr_rogers wrote: gmggg wrote: Hmm... I didn't know that the rap stations had been removed. There were rap stations on Moby Grape? I can't think of any after the triangle roof (end of pitch 2 or 3). Which is not to say that there aren't plenty of places to bail from, you'll just be leaving some gear behind. Anyways, Moby Grape is awesome. The best multi-pitch 5.8 I've ever done. God, I love that climb. Ignore what wonderwoman says, the cliff is amazing and there's nothing to be.... OH SHIT!!!! ROCK ROCK ROCK !!!!! *whew* ... that was close.... what was I saying?
Yep, you're correct. 3 nice raps from the top of that pitch. 1st some pins and then bolt anchors the rest of the way. And there's usually some tat around pitch 5 as well, which they could have used or backed up with their own gear.
They were already through the meat of the route difficulty-wise and where they got rescued from, according to the short post on neclimbs anyway, was pitch 7 just after that big ledge. Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 24, 2011, 10:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.html
Ignorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details.
The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic.
Josh
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majid_sabet
Oct 24, 2011, 10:57 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.htmlIgnorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details. The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic. Josh
I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring.
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wonderwoman
Oct 24, 2011, 11:52 PM
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gmggg wrote: Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them.
Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck.
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Dip
Oct 25, 2011, 12:33 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.htmlIgnorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details. The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic. Josh I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring.
I don't disagree that we should all be prepared for the worst when undertaking a climb like this. What bothers me is how quick you are to point a finger and say they had no business being up there, i.e. "gym climbers" when you have no idea what happened. And if you are right and they were indeed in over their head then in my opinion they did the right thing by calling for help. I'd rather read about three young people getting a questionable search and rescue than three dead teenagers.
I know your counterpoint is going to be that they shouldn't have been up there in the first place if they weren't prepared for the undertaking, and you are 100% correct in saying so. I just think you should get all the facts before you start finger pointing and name calling.
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jacques
Oct 25, 2011, 12:52 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Ignorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details.
ignorant is the good term in my opinion. If you begin at five in the morning, you can plan one hour and a half per pitches. with that schedule, you are at the top thirteen hour and a half later, at six thirty. they were three pitches lower (380 feet) They were at 4hour 30 from the top. They were really too slow even probably at the first pitch.
Planning a route and route finding is some think relatively easy to learn when you climb with an experience climber for one year. The team on moby didn't know how to plan the route and have rope management problem and rap problem.
For me, it is too many mistake to be inexperience. They didn't know what to do and just climb without knowledge.
I understand that some people talk about route finding and accuse Canon to be dangerous. Climb ambrosia and you will know what is a dangerous cliff. Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). Route finding is a skill to learn to avoid the danger and be able to climb on that kind of rock. I onsight more than 10 route in the cliff and still be more stress by some sport climber at cathedral.
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guangzhou
Oct 25, 2011, 1:26 AM
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I love reading the newspaper articles written about "Dramatic Rescues" in the climbing world. Let's face it, we have no idea why they needed a rescue based on this article.
Not properly equipped for a cold night, I have no idea what that means to be honest. Does it mean they didn't have sleeping bag, or that they were only in shorts and t-shirt with no jackets. Not properly equip from a newspaper reporter is very different than the same words used from a climber.
I love climbing on Cannon, but one post above says 4.30 from the car to the top, if it's your first time on the cliff and you're a route at your ability, I think you're looking at a longer day than that.
Route finding, if it was so easy, we wouldn't have guidebooks and more people would be putting up first ascents. It's a skill that is learned for sure. Every new place you climb has its own route finding issues. After climbing for years in Yosemite, I moved tot he South East and played on Looking Glass and Whiteside. Following the long cracks of Yosemite made route finding a lot easier than the eyebrows of Looking Looking Glass or the gear protected face climbs of white side.
I've climbed on Canon, the talus field, on your first trip will slow you down, the route finding could slow you down too I guess. To call this a "Wilderness Wall" seems a bit of a stretch for me. The parking area is near the base of the talus field, and as the article mentioned, the Search an Rescue guys used a chairlift to access the top.
Here is what I see, three guys who attempted a route and for some reason, maybe a stuck rope, were going to have to spend a cold night on the wall. They were scared and called for a rescue.
As one post mentioned above, watch for falling rock.
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shortys
Oct 25, 2011, 1:34 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.htmlIgnorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details. The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic. Josh I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring.
majid_sabet really who cares?????????? Why didnt you help them?????
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wonderwoman
Oct 25, 2011, 2:28 AM
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guangzhou wrote: As one post mentioned above, watch for falling rock.
WG was my introduction to multi-pitch & black flies. I saw a climber pull off a rock the size of my kitchen table on a route to the right of me. It made me pause for a second.
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olderic
Oct 25, 2011, 2:35 AM
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jacques wrote: Duet is also special and have some death long time ago (a block felt on the leg and the climber died from an open fracture). a
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majid_sabet
Oct 25, 2011, 3:51 AM
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shortys wrote: majid_sabet wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: majid_sabet wrote: They were equipped with climbing gear and lights, but were not prepared to deal with overnight mountain temperatures dipping into the 20’s. Although they had set at 5:30 a.m. for their climb up the Moby Grape route up Cannon Cliffs, they became overextended on terrain that required more than their level of expertise. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...ntain-requiring.htmlIgnorant? Maybe. Inexperienced? Definitely. That still doesn't mean that you should be kicking them when they are down, especially without knowing any details. The actual climbing on Moby is pretty casual, but when you combine it with the weather, loose rock, and route finding difficulties, you can quickly get over your head. Let's just hope they learned some things from this epic. Josh I mean, calling rescue team cause you are cold or you forgot about your plan B is just pure excuse and i do not see why these climbers do not get it in their head that this is not a gym climbing. you go out there to climb, you should be prepped to spend the night out there cause you never know what nature may bring. majid_sabet really who cares?????????? Why didnt you help them?????
me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ?
Are you kidding me ?
I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out
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notapplicable
Oct 25, 2011, 4:56 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: gmggg wrote: Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them. Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck.
...and you're off route and disoriented and it's dark...
Since they obviously were not willing to spend the night on the wall, I'd rather they acknowledged their situation and called for help, instead of "saving" themselves in to an early grave. Rapping in to unknown territory on Canon after dark is an easy way for an inexperienced climber to get dead.
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bearbreeder
Oct 25, 2011, 4:58 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ? Are you kidding me ? I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out
i have never met anyone in emergency services ... or any outdoor guides with that attitude ...
people run up the chief here all the time with nothing more than some water and a few gummy bears ... even now youre unlikely to bring anything more than some water, snacks, a jacket,
matches, headlamp and a survival bag/blanket ... and a cell phone
the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 25, 2011, 12:25 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible
Fast and light is not something that inexperienced climbers should be doing, or are even capable of doing. These were obviously inexperienced climbers who got in over their heads. No one is debating that. But we don't know the details. 3 Kids who probably thought, 5.8?, we can do that, and headed out on an adventure. One thing leads to another...moving too slow, getting off route, not prepared for the weather, getting a rope stuck, not having the knowledge or experience to save themselves, scared and cold.......they called for help.
To Majid and Jacques, would you rather they not called and wound up dead? Now, if the same people were to go out and do it again, that's one thing, but people make mistakes. Let's hope they learned from it.
If you spent half the time climbing that you do scouring the internet for ignorance and stupidity, then you actually might be a half way decent climber.
Josh
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stagg54
Oct 25, 2011, 1:22 PM
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Fast and light is definitely the way to go but only if you have the experience and judgement to do it.
I see so many beginners whose mantra is fast and light and they have no idea what they are doing. By going fast and light you are lowering your safety margin (I realize on some routes speed is safety -ie. dodging falling rocks/ice, ect. but I maintain that in general fast and light lowers your safety margin.). You have to have the judgement/experience to know when to bail and know when you can suffer through it. Beginners don't have that judgement/experience.
You also have to be able to know when you gotten lucky. Unfortunately many new climbers mistake luck for skill, and then proceed to step things up and get even more over their head.
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gmggg
Oct 25, 2011, 1:47 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: gmggg wrote: Rapping would have been pretty trivial compared to calling in the cavalcade of people required to help them. Trivial, except for when your rope is stuck.
Both of them? It's hard to imagine that they had only one rope since there were three of them. Also, what exactly is a "stuck" rope in this particular case. What did they get it stuck in/on? That upper section is brief slabs intertwined with blocky sections. There aren't a whole ton of cracks and there aren't trees. Now of course weird stuff does happen and maybe something did happen but barring injury they should have been able to (or at least willing to attempt to) figure it out or they shouldn't have been there. And, did the rescuers help them retrieve their rope or did they sacrifice it to Cannon?
With that said, I'm sure they were pretty spooked during their experience and I have full empathy for what I imagine they were going through. But the reality is that they could/should have been able to handle it themselves. I think any gray area hinges around that "could/should" line. Some people self rescue when they should call for help and some people call for help when they don't really need it. It's situational.
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jakedatc
Oct 25, 2011, 2:10 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: me helping two Jr 18 years old climbing n00bs ? Are you kidding me ? I'll them freeze their balls off and when they are ready to take the AED pad to their heart, that's when I go and get them out i have never met anyone in emergency services ... or any outdoor guides with that attitude ... people run up the chief here all the time with nothing more than some water and a few gummy bears ... even now youre unlikely to bring anything more than some water, snacks, a jacket, matches, headlamp and a survival bag/blanket ... and a cell phone the basic rule of climbing longer rock routes, if mistah mahhjeed actually led more than 5.7 would know, is that you travel as fast and light as reasonably possible
you sure do you like your gummy bear story... 2 threads in 2 totally different forums and topics... 
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