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Marylandclimber
Nov 22, 2011, 8:20 PM
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I already asked this question before about the grigri but nobody seemed to answer my real question. If you setup a top rope and just use one rope down, can you attach a Petzl ascender and move it up the rope as you climb? Also, can you do the same with the grigri when ALONE?
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rossross
Nov 22, 2011, 9:45 PM
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Marylandclimber wrote: I already asked this question before about the grigri but nobody seemed to answer my real question. If you setup a top rope and just use one rope down, can you attach a Petzl ascender and move it up the rope as you climb? Also, can you do the same with the grigri when ALONE? yes The grigri will also work for a self belay on a traditional TR setup, but you have to pull twice as much rope through the device.
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bigo
Nov 22, 2011, 9:52 PM
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Marylandclimber wrote: I already asked this question before about the grigri but nobody seemed to answer my real question. If you setup a top rope and just use one rope down, can you attach a Petzl ascender and move it up the rope as you climb? Also, can you do the same with the grigri when ALONE? Do a search on this site and supertopo.com. There are a lot's of posts discussing different methods of top rope soloing and the merits of each system. edit to add a link as an example... http://www.supertopo.com/...Error-almost-tragedy
(This post was edited by bigo on Nov 22, 2011, 10:42 PM)
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Rmsyll2
Nov 23, 2011, 3:09 AM
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Perhaps if you would ask your question better, you could get a better answer. You start by mentioning Grigri, then change to Petzl ascender without specifying which one of those. The Grigri is sold as a belay device, not an ascender. Guess what: ascenders do ascend. And so will a Grigri, for the same reason: they are attached to your harness, normally, so if you go up, they go up too. So, what was your question? If you say self-belay, that means you are doing it yourself, so what does "ALONE" mean for your question? Today, I made another four complete ascents, plus a bunch of tiring test attempts at a project route. For the first route, three other guys were working on a route next to mine. They had never seen solo TR, and they watched, including seeing me fall or bail a few times, and seeing me complete and rappel on the same device, a Grigri. They never saw me pull up slack, because with a weight at the bottom of the single strand of rope hung from a knot at the top, there is no slack as I go up. If there is, I stop and fix the problem causing it, then proceed. At the other route, no one even passed by on the trail. I've done this on about three hundred days, amounting to easily a thousand ascents. I don't do it when a lot of people might see it, and the one person who is occasionally doing it too lets me use his rope while he is resting instead of belaying. You can go up, you can sit, you can fall, you can lower. You want to use a Cinch or a Grigri 2, fine. You want to go through all the infernal and potentially dangerous hassle of trading devices, your choice. This topic, and the nonsense of having to use two opposite devices and having to pull slack with a Grigri, should IMO be blocked from this forum for being exhausted. edit 11/25/11: bold added above. edit 12/21/11: There is now an illustrated report of what I learned from others, and by doing, at: http://climbpilotnc.us/...olo/GrigriSoloTR.htm. The first attached photo here is from the same day and route as those photos (there may be others later). He was walking the cliff looking for a partner and had to settle for me, and use my Grigri. Below the bottom of the image, he had started to pull slack a second time. I told him to forget about it, just climb. He did, as you can see with no slack above, and was doing a short section of 5.10 (note no footing). He is a 5.12 multi-pitch Trad guy, yet had never been solo TR on a Grigri. Where the notion of pulling slack ever came from, dunno; but it was like a reflex for him. He did stop bothering with it, the weight at the bottom took care of it, and he finished the route with a 5.10+ variation in second photo here, showing NO SLACK with no pulling on the rope. .
(This post was edited by Rmsyll2 on Dec 22, 2011, 5:43 AM)
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chilli
Nov 23, 2011, 7:57 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote: I already asked this question before about the grigri but nobody seemed to answer my real question. If you setup a top rope and just use one rope down, can you attach a Petzl ascender and move it up the rope as you climb? Also, can you do the same with the grigri when ALONE? There is absolutely no need to ask the question a 3rd time. ...at least not until after you >>CLICK HERE<< and >>HERE<< AND >>HERE<< and consider looking up Petzl's stance on it as well. [edit: oh yeah, I just remembered THIS ONE as well. Later edit: for some reason that link didn't work --> I meant THIS ONE, which was also posted below]
(This post was edited by chilli on Nov 27, 2011, 7:57 PM)
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seniormoose
Nov 23, 2011, 9:51 PM
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I reject the "nonsense" characterization. A smooth ascent on a Microcender beats having to stop to pull slack through a GriGri. And many do not regard a GriGri as a suitable rappel device.
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bearbreeder
Nov 23, 2011, 10:15 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Perhaps if you would ask your question better, you could get a better answer. You start by mentioning Grigri, then change to Petzl ascender without specifying which one of those. The Grigri is sold as a belay device, not an ascender. Guess what: ascenders do ascend. And so will a Grigri, for the same reason: they are attached to your harness, normally, so if you go up, they go up too. So, what was your question? If you say self-belay, that means you are doing it yourself, so what does "ALONE" mean for your question? Today, I made another four complete ascents, plus a bunch of tiring test attempts at a project route. For the first route, three other guys were working on a route next to mine. They had never seen solo TR, and they watched, including seeing me fall or bail a few times, and seeing me complete and rappel on the same device, a Grigri. They never saw me pull down slack, because with a weight at the bottom of the single strand of rope hung from a knot at the top, there is no slack as I go up. If there is, I stop and fix the problem causing it, then proceed. At the other route, no one even passed by on the trail. I've done this on about three hundred days, amounting to easily a thousand ascents. I don't do it when a lot of people might see it, and the one person who is occasionally doing it too lets me use his rope while he is resting instead of belaying. You can go up, you can sit, you can fall, you can lower. You want to use a Cinch or a Grigri 2, fine. You want to go through all the infernal and potentially dangerous hassle of trading devices like 'seniormoose', your choice. This topic, and the nonsense of having to use two opposite devices and having to pull down slack with a Grigri, should IMO be blocked from this forum for being exhausted. . i urge you stop giving dangerous advice while some may use the gri gri for soloing ... they do so at their own risk ... the gri gri is NOT rated as a hands free device ... there have been incidents on belay where a gri gri has slipped "hands free" ... to have this happen when soloing could have serious consequences ... those i know who choose to solo on a gri gri tend to tie knots in the system as they are aware things can happen ... from the BMC ... http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1547 its obvious that from yr gri gri for lead belaying thread that yr not all that experienced with one ... what system you choose is up to you ... but be responsible of the advice you give to new climbers on an internet forum where you obviously dont have much experience yrself
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stoneguy
Nov 24, 2011, 1:37 AM
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OK, I know this has been done to death, but what WOULD be your choice of device for TR Solo.? And, yes, I know the GG2 was not designed for this.
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bearbreeder
Nov 24, 2011, 1:47 AM
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i own and use a micro-ascender ... i also use a keimhesit backup on top ... and stop and tie at least one knot off the deck preferably more ive never heard of a micro ascender slipping, though anything can slip ... IMO never depend on a single hands free device when rope soloing ... always have knots or another device/knot .. its a single point of mechanical failure that can and has failed before ... and the consequence is death if you look around youll see enough posts/threads where people have slipped in a gri gri or other such device and been caught by their backup knot
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shockabuku
Nov 24, 2011, 3:07 AM
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I also prefer the Petzl Microcender.
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Rmsyll2
Nov 26, 2011, 3:20 AM
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'seniormoose' said "many do not regard a GriGri as a suitable rappel device." At http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHEzO0-BunM listen at 0:20 and hear "switched over to the Grigri, rapped down on the Grigri". Others doing solo are also using a Grigri to descend. It does require using a single strand, which is often used for solo anyway. .
(This post was edited by Rmsyll2 on Nov 26, 2011, 3:21 AM)
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Rmsyll2
Nov 26, 2011, 4:04 AM
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'bearbreeder' said "i urge you stop giving dangerous advice" I urge him, or anyone else, to quote my giving advice, rather than stating facts. Please also find where I mentioned anything about "hands free". The recent advice to me from an AMGA guide was that a major cause of accidents and death is transferring between devices and ropes, a point not commonly treated here on the subject of solo climbing, where the preponderant reported practice and therefore advice is to do exactly that, which is exactly what one does not need to do using a Grigri. IF one chooses to, like all the rest of climbing from the minute you leave home. 'bearbreeder' also said "yr not all that experienced with one". I probably have more experience climbing STR with a Grigri than anyone posting at this topic about doing that, as stated "easily a thousand ascents", recently up to nine a day. I have only started doing lead belay with a Grigri, as stated as the very subject of the topic referred to. Stokely Carmichael said "Hatred is as American as apple pie." It is also an unfortunately large portion and purpose of the verbiage at this forum. .
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jacques
Nov 26, 2011, 4:53 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote: If you setup a top rope and just use one rope down, can you attach a Petzl ascender and move it up the rope as you climb? Also, can you do the same with the grigri when ALONE? the answer is in the question: what happen if I fall. If the rope is in tension, the fall factor will be very low and a fall will generate a force of 200 or 300 pounds on the device and on the rope. With an ascender, it is not a problem. Personally, I use a shunt. The shunt don't have tooth and the sheath of the rope can not be cut. The problem with the shunt is that the biner can make and obstruction to stop the fall. I have to use a sling between my harness and the shunt. If I have slack in the rope and I am over my shunt with a sling, I can have a fall factor higher than 2.0 (if you understand the fall, you will understand this example). If I load an ascender with 2400 pounds, it will break and the sheat of my rope destroy. the grigri will hold, but it can not engage freehand. Rmsyll2 said that he use a ten pounds wieght to engage it in case of a fall. In that way, the rope is always in tension, he don't use a slink and his grigri is not freehand because of the weight. So, determine your fall factor, have an estimation of the force generate on the rope (mountaineering freedom of the hill fifth edition), gave you a safety marge, choose a device, look to be sure that it will work in a fall. I lead with a shunt and it's working. Two danger: the device can be stuck in the biner, so you have to use a sling, and, in a fall, you can push the trigger. You will fall to the end of the rope. Grigri came after. Always better to climb with a friend. climbing could be solitary some time, even in a team, but climbing with a partner is always better. Before, we were so happy to find someone who can climb that we make some effort to stick with him and, after a while, a friendly relation can gave you the opportunity to climb safe in a large number of situation.
(This post was edited by jacques on Nov 26, 2011, 4:57 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 26, 2011, 5:28 AM
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Quoted for posterity ... Theres nothing more to say ... The simple fact is that the gri gri is not a hands free device ... And without a backup knot or additional device is not really safe imo Read the petzl documentation Would anyone here take their hands off when belaying with a gri gri??? Thats what yr doing when using it for self belay Randomly quoting some unnamed guide is no excuse for providing unsafe advice to beginners in self belay I urge others to read this persons other post then make their own judgement about his competence
Rmsyll2 wrote: 'bearbreeder' said "i urge you stop giving dangerous advice" I urge him, or anyone else, to quote my giving advice, rather than stating facts. Please also find where I mentioned anything about "hands free". The recent advice to me from an AMGA guide was that a major cause of accidents and death is transferring between devices and ropes, a point not commonly treated here on the subject of solo climbing, where the preponderant reported practice and therefore advice is to do exactly that, which is exactly what one does not need to do using a Grigri. IF one chooses to, like all the rest of climbing from the minute you leave home. 'bearbreeder' also said "yr not all that experienced with one". I probably have more experience climbing STR with a Grigri than anyone posting at this topic about doing that, as stated "easily a thousand ascents", recently up to nine a day. I have only started doing lead belay with a Grigri, as stated as the very subject of the topic referred to. Stokely Carmichael said "Hatred is as American as apple pie." It is also an unfortunately large portion and purpose of the verbiage at this forum. .
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shockabuku
Nov 26, 2011, 2:55 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: 'bearbreeder' said "i urge you stop giving dangerous advice" I urge him, or anyone else, to quote my giving advice, rather than stating facts. Please also find where I mentioned anything about "hands free". The recent advice to me from an AMGA guide was that a major cause of accidents and death is transferring between devices and ropes, a point not commonly treated here on the subject of solo climbing, where the preponderant reported practice and therefore advice is to do exactly that, which is exactly what one does not need to do using a Grigri. IF one chooses to, like all the rest of climbing from the minute you leave home. 'bearbreeder' also said "yr not all that experienced with one". I probably have more experience climbing STR with a Grigri than anyone posting at this topic about doing that, as stated "easily a thousand ascents", recently up to nine a day. I have only started doing lead belay with a Grigri, as stated as the very subject of the topic referred to. Stokely Carmichael said "Hatred is as American as apple pie." It is also an unfortunately large portion and purpose of the verbiage at this forum. . So why is Stokely Carmichael, who I've never heard of, assumed to be right but bearbreeder is wrong and this random guide, who most of us don't know, is also right? Merely your random, unqualified assessment?
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vinnie83
Nov 26, 2011, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: I have to use a sling between my harness and the shunt. If I have slack in the rope and I am over my shunt with a sling, I can have a fall factor higher than 2.0 I could be completely misunderstanding what your are trying to say here, but there is really no reasonable situation to cause a factor 2 fall while top-roping.
In reply to: Would anyone here take their hands off when belaying with a gri gri??? Of course I would, you think I'm going to keep my hands on the rope while belaying an aid pitch for a few hours instead of eating a snack, drinking some water, or one of the many other things i could be doing while on a wall.
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bearbreeder
Nov 26, 2011, 9:06 PM
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vinnie83 wrote: Of course I would, you think I'm going to keep my hands on the rope while belaying an aid pitch for a few hours instead of eating a snack, drinking some water, or one of the many other things i could be doing while on a wall. you can do so holding the rope lightly ...thats what i do with my mammut smart i personally would not climb with anyone who belays with the gri gri hands free without tying a backup first prior taking their hands off whether other people do so is up to them .. as long as their partner is experienced enough to understand the risk it simply is not a hands free device
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jacques
Nov 27, 2011, 5:41 AM
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vinnie83 wrote: I could be completely misunderstanding what your are trying to say here, but there is really no reasonable situation to cause a factor 2 fall while top-roping. I agree that there is no reasonable reason, but, using a shunt and a sling it could happen that you have two feet of slack in a rope plus one feet for the lenght of the sling. six feet of fall on 3 feet of rope can happen..surprisinglty
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sungam
Nov 27, 2011, 10:23 AM
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jacques wrote: vinnie83 wrote: I could be completely misunderstanding what your are trying to say here, but there is really no reasonable situation to cause a factor 2 fall while top-roping. I agree that there is no reasonable reason, but, using a shunt and a sling it could happen that you have two feet of slack in a rope plus one feet for the lenght of the sling. six feet of fall on 3 feet of rope can happen..surprisinglty And as strong as my initial reaction of "who the fuck would attach themselves to a shunt with a foot of webbing?" this seems to be the standard back-up that routesetters use at the gym I go to.
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vinnie83
Nov 27, 2011, 5:24 PM
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jacques wrote: vinnie83 wrote: I could be completely misunderstanding what your are trying to say here, but there is really no reasonable situation to cause a factor 2 fall while top-roping. I agree that there is no reasonable reason, but, using a shunt and a sling it could happen that you have two feet of slack in a rope plus one feet for the lenght of the sling. six feet of fall on 3 feet of rope can happen..surprisinglty Ok so you are solo toproping with a shunt connected to your harness with a foot long sling and you let 2 feet of slack build up in the rope. Lets say you're getting close to the anchor and only have 5 feet to go, that makes a 3 foot fall (2 ft of slack rope+ 1 ft sling) on 7 ft of rope (5 between you and anchor + 2 ft of slack hanging below you-not including the sling). In your example its actually only 3 foot fall on 3 ft of rope (if you include the sling) unless you are leading on your shunt and have no pro in between you and the anchor-not at all what we are talking about here. Since you are on top rope you have a loop of 3 ft hanging below you fall 3 feet before the rope starts to stretch.
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markc
Nov 27, 2011, 5:52 PM
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This is pretty much the system I use: http://www.climbing.com/...techtips/ttsport253/ I generally fix the mid-point of my rope at the top of the crag. One strand is for my belay device, and I pre-tie alpine butterfly knots every six feet or so in the other. I use two slings girth hitched to my harness with two small lockers to clip the back-up loops. It makes clipping into the backup line easier. Personally, I would not be comfortable without some form of back-up, whether it's a back-up line or regular knots under your device of choice. It's especially important to check and double-check your system, to use due caution at the top of the crag, etc. I also test my device just off the deck on each climb. As peaceful as a day out alone can be, you're the only one looking after your safety.
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shockabuku
Nov 28, 2011, 1:37 AM
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vinnie83 wrote: In reply to: I have to use a sling between my harness and the shunt. If I have slack in the rope and I am over my shunt with a sling, I can have a fall factor higher than 2.0 I could be completely misunderstanding what your are trying to say here, but there is really no reasonable situation to cause a factor 2 fall while top-roping. I think the Shunt will slip and you won't have an actual ff2 fall.
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jacques
Nov 28, 2011, 5:26 AM
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vinnie83 wrote: Ok so you are solo toproping with a shunt connected to your harness with a foot long sling and you let 2 feet of slack build up in the rope. In your example its actually only 3 foot fall on 3 ft . I said I can have a fall factor greater than 2.0 (see the attachment fc.jpg, I don't know how to load it)
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jacques
Nov 28, 2011, 5:37 AM
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"shockabuku wrote: I think the Shunt will slip and you won't have an actual ff2 fall. By experience, the shunt will slip and will be torn if you had just one rope in one side. The time to stop a fall are calculate with the measure of the friction of the shunt and the time. I think that the fall factor will reminds the same. If a force of 2400 pounds is apply on a shunt and the shunt stop 1000pounds per second, it will take 2.4 second to stop the fall or x feet. so if you take one feet and you use an ascender, the sheath of the rope will be cut on one feet. The number are wrong, I know it. It is a vulgarisation of the theory, I think, of how a dymanic rope, belay or shunt work. don't need a mathematical course, but just how it is working.
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binrat
Nov 28, 2011, 3:50 PM
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shockabuku wrote: I also prefer the Petzl Microcender. +1
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