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trevor
Anonymous Poster
Nov 20, 2001, 6:51 AM
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There has been a problem at RC.com with how to manage the balance act between allowing people to provide feedback and stopping the website turn into a school playground full of whinning kids.
Before I start, I want to explain that RC.com was made on the back of volunteers. None of us are paid to do this. Yes I have personally profitted from the site before but when you count the server fees for the last 6 years and the thousands of hours I've spent, I made about a tenth of penny per hour. So, stop complaining for the free service!
Now, I want RC.com to be awesome! Yes even better than any of us can imagine right now. So that means getting more people to contribute and taking other people's suggestions and feedback even when I don't like their feedback and they say they want to puke on me.
At the same time, the one thing people hate more than not being able to provide feedback (aka censorship) is having to wade through someone elses endless moanings.
So what do we do?? We can't tell everyone to shutup and lock their topics, but we also need people to be heard.
So here are some guidelines that I am thinking about. Let me know what you think and give me some feedback/suggestions, before I make this an official part of the Forum posting policy.
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trevor
Anonymous Poster
Nov 20, 2001, 6:52 AM
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1) No arguments/complaints whatsoever in the General forum unless it is explicitly climbing related.
2) Any topic that is pornographic or completely objectionable (judged by trevor, not committee) will be deleted without warning.
3) We remove the ability to lock a topic altogether.
4) Forum moderators will be responsible for each forum, not admins. An admin can be a moderator, but they don't become absolute power holders by becoming an admin. This way we know the moderator we the only person who could have deleted or moved a topic.
5) We create a new site forum called Major Complaints. Topics do not show up on the home page. This is an anything goes forum. Nothing will ever be moderated in this forum with the one exception that I get veto power here if I feel that things went too far. For example, someone says to egg my mom's house because I'm a whatever. If you have this big of a problem with me, then get your own website.
6) Any moderator can move a topic into Major Complaints if it gets over their heads.
7) I will keep an eye on this forum and will get to it when I can. I'm very busy but will eventually get to the big problems that need my attention.
The Community forum will continue to be unmoderated.
I don't have time to read every post and fix everyone's problems. I simply can't keep up anymore with thousands of posts. So if there is a major problem (I mean big), then you can come to me. The buck stops here; I promise.
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rocmonkey
Nov 20, 2001, 8:16 AM
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Trev, I see you didnt lock this topic, so I think you wouldn't mind me replying.
I can't believe that you have to, and actually take so much sh*t (*sorry) from members/guests.
To the rest:
Trevor has given us climbers something that our peers of the past did not have. This is an opportunity that not only gives us the ability to meet new friends and climbing partners from all over the world, but also presents us with the means to have questions answered and to learn all the small details about climbing that we either haven't thought about, or didn't know existed.
Stop the bullsh*t and give Trevor a break. Sometimes we will have a slow connection, or a busted server....live and let live.
I myself am an internet administrator and I know what can go wrong.
Anyone that takes Trev on in anything more than a polite manner does not, and should not have place on this site...he is lenient and he has given us much to be thankfull for...
breathe stone
RoC
[ This Message was edited by: rocmonkey on 2001-11-20 04:49 ]
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robydonn
Nov 20, 2001, 12:31 PM
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Just what Roc said
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ecchastang
Nov 20, 2001, 2:24 PM
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Trevor,
Just want to say thanks for the website, and we appreciate what you do.
Eric
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pianomahnn
Nov 20, 2001, 3:17 PM
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In case Trevor doesn't get around to saying it; on behalf of those who understand and support Us (the administrators of rockclimbing.com), thank you very much.
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passthepitonspete
Nov 20, 2001, 4:11 PM
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Dear Trevor,
Thanks for listening. This is important.
I am very sorry for saying I wanted to ralph all over you. The truth of the matter was I was frustrated as H-E-double-hockey-sticks over my inbox and my inability to delete messages en masse. (You know, all that fan mail I get.....). I had become a slave to my inbox and needed to enter a twelve-step program every time I wanted to read my PMs. I had asked several people about solutions to the problem, and none appeared, so I made an inappropriate response. For this I apologize.
The danger of my approach is that it worked - immediately!. This can be a bad thing, but this can be a good thing too. I understand why you might want to hide the major problems from appearing on the front page. But don't forget it's the conflicts that bring a lot of people here.
I agree with all of your excellent and well-thought-out suggestions.
May I please ask you to define the role of a moderator? I believe it is important to have an Official Policy Statement concerning this, too. I say this since I apparently am one and don't know what the H-E-double-hockey-sticks it means! As for unmoderated forums, if it's the ability to express yourself freely, please visit Dr. Piton. Dr. Piton will NEVER stop you from saying your peace, even if you are my detractor. Dr. Piton NEEDS detractors - otherwise he could have no fun. Just be warned - if you enter the field of battle, you may end up winning, but at the very least you will get a bloody nose.
It is good to know that the buck does stop with you, and I think it is important to say this to everyone who may have any doubts: Trevor is a skilled and fair negotiator.
So start cutting deals! This is the way life works! Grow up. DEAL with it.
Quit having Hissy Fits and running away or threating this or that if you don't get your own way. You will no longer be permitted to close forums in which you are losing - you will not be able to put in the last word and then go run away and not face the consequences. Write what you mean, stick behind it, and be prepared to pay the price for your words. THINK what you say before you write it, because you will be held accountable. Especially with me. Heaven help you if you write something stupid or without thinking in my forum.
Having a Hissy Fit can work if you are a child with easily-manipulated parents, and it works for schoolteachers. Sometimes students can manipulate teachers with Hissy Fits but ordinarily the converse is true. But taking a Hissy Fit does NOT work in the Real World. Here you need to negotiate.
If you hurt someone and you know it and you want to reconcile, apologize! Only a fool will cut off his nose to spite his face. It is an acceptable practice every now and then to kiss ass. One man's ass kissing is another man's negotiation. Do what it takes to make this place work.
Quit using hearsay. It is unacceptable practice to say stuff like, "well, so-and-so said this about you." You can't DO that. You can only write what you personally saw or heard. Hearsay is inadmissable in a court of law, and it sure as H-E-double-hockey-sticks ought to be here. Use it in my forum and you'll be held accountable. It is inappropriate behaviour so you must expect to pay the price.
If you do not know what hearsay means, find the hell out so you know what not to do. If you do not know the penalty of hearsay, I am prepared to direct you personally to a post or two.
If a Guy Like Dr. Piton can negotiate a settlement, then anyone can. So start negotiating. This is what is fair. It is a great fallacy that "life is fair" - it's not. It's because of unfair treatment that this is so. WE don't need to treat each other unfairly. There are acceptable rules of engagement that are being defined. This we need to do, and we need to stick to the rules of the game. A game is no fun if the rules are ill-defined and broken at will. (Poor Will)
There are WAY too many "plain vanilla" websites around. We're not one of them. There are too many passionate personalities around here to ever need to worry about that. We do not want to degenerate into a rec.climbing newsgroup mess, where people write without thinking.
Use your frickin' BRAIN. I have yet to meet anyone here who is not smart. I have met plenty of people who are not wise.
Do you know the difference between knowledge and wisdom? Wisdom is the application of knowledge. That means using your head! I write this especially to the young bulls, though the old bulls can benefit from this as well.
Let's work together to strengthen our position worldwide. We really can be the bitchin'est climbing site on the whole damn www!. This is my goal, and I hope you will help me to accomplish it.
In closing I would like to express my envy over Trevor's wage rate since it is substantially higher than mine.
End of rant.
Come visit Dr. Piton.
[ This Message was edited by: passthepitonspete on 2001-11-20 08:34 ]
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andy_lemon
Nov 20, 2001, 6:02 PM
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Well thought out Trevor... Those are very excellent choices for guidlines... maybe if you put some thought to it, slapping the guidelines onto a page so that they can never be disputed.
Good job Trevor
Andy
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theooze
Nov 20, 2001, 6:23 PM
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Dear Trevor,
As only a recent member of rc.com, I may have been out of place in taking such a high-profile stance in support of the Dr. Piton forum during the recent controversy. Nevertheless, I am very happy with your decision to reinstate it. I think that in time, the wisdom of your decision will become apparent. The guy's got talent, no matter what your crew of wet-behind-the-ears, smart-aleck admins may think.
Meanwhile, as a Dr. P supporter, I promise to do my part to help keep him within the bounds of civilized behavior.
Sorry to bring up the dreaded Dr. P word under the topic of your new guidelines, but I am leading up to a point. As you may know, I recently expressed an intention to leave rc.com as a result of some abusive conduct by one of your admins, vowing not to return unless I saw that admin's head on a stake.
I do, however, see from your proposed guidelines that you are making a good faith effort to prevent reoccurrences of this type of behavior, which I heartily applaud. Based on that, as well as Dr. Piton's own request to me, I shall gratefully return to the fold.
By the way, I think you have a pretty bitch'n site, notwithstanding what I may have written previously.
Cordially,
Hans Chlorine
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passthepitonspete
Nov 20, 2001, 6:30 PM
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Hanschlorine wrote,
"Meanwhile, as a Dr. P supporter, I promise to do my part to help keep him within the bounds of civilized behavior."
Dr. Piton replies,
"You crazy b*gger! Trying to restrain Dr. Piton is like trying to hold back the wind or contain oil in your hands."
Thank you for your return. Dr. Piton is preparing a post for People Like You, of which there are only a few.
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pianomahnn
Nov 20, 2001, 8:37 PM
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Hans,
Disrespecting the Administrators who pour many countless hours into this site isn't going to help your cause one little bit.
It would be in the best interest for you to reevaluate your position on who WE are. Name calling isn't a good way to express your points, and is only met with a slight chuckle from me and a little response pointing out your error. Without us this site would not be what it currently is today. There would be NO Dr. Pitons forum. There would be no extensive route database for you to peruse.
The administrators of this website have acted in ways perfectly acceptable to the circumstances. In cases of direct personal attack, we should have the same rights to snap back as the general member of this site. Some of us choose to not engage in these "pissing match" activities, other choose to take the bull by the horns.
I ask you to rethink your phrasing of "wet-behind-the-ears, smart alec admins" statement. It's a broad generalization and grossly incorrect.
Respect is a wonderful thing, and I'd wish for you to respect us, and our responsibilties, and we respect you and your responsibilities.
This site is a symbiotic relationship between its Administrators and its members. Meaning, if both don't work together, nothing gets accomplished. So, how 'bout it, can we all get a little symbiotic?
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captainprozac
Nov 20, 2001, 9:32 PM
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......why pianomahnn?
why must you always............always.........
..always have the last word?
huh?
....why?
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pianomahnn
Nov 20, 2001, 9:39 PM
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I think the last time I checked it was because I was win. But that could have changed since then...
No, really, what is this last word stuff? I = confused.
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jaydoc
Nov 20, 2001, 11:11 PM
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Trevor, I can't thank you and the other volunteers enough for this site. It is, hands down, the most useful and informative rockclimbing site around. The forums are precisely what make it so.
As for how to deal with the site's detractors...
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pianomahnn
Nov 20, 2001, 11:17 PM
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Sweeeeeeet....
Those smilie guys are EVERYWHERE nowadays. Is there anything they can't do?
[ This Message was edited by: pianomahnn on 2001-11-20 15:18 ]
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jaydoc
Nov 20, 2001, 11:39 PM
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Did you just get in the last word again, piano?
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rrrADAM
Nov 21, 2001, 1:11 AM
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PTPP,
You asked what the guidelines of a Mod are... I guess you did not read the FAQ.
This vaguely defines their role...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/faq.php#mods
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rocmonkey
Nov 21, 2001, 7:25 AM
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See Trev we mostly have members that appreciate your work....but you will always find a few creeps climbing out of the cracks.
Keep up the good work and know that most of us think this site is heaven on the Net.
breathe stone
RoC
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pianomahnn
Nov 21, 2001, 7:38 AM
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No. Yes. Wait, I mean....
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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theooze
Nov 21, 2001, 5:03 PM
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Dear Trevor,
With the reinstatement of Dr. Piton and the new rules you've proposed, the recent controversy has quieted down a bit, and yet, as with the nasty Al Queda, pockets of resistance remain.
It has consistently been the case during the debate over the future of Dr. Piton's forum that administrators of this site have been the most active and persistent of his detractors. Much of the friction between the admins and the doctor seems to have originated in climbing-related debates which escalated into angry personal squabbles.
Even now, heated debate is occurring in at least two areas where accusations of serious misconduct have been alleged on the part of Dr. P. Again, in both cases an admin is the leading attacker. One of these cases, which, by the way, was aired prior to your decision to reinstate the forum, involves issues of sexual harassment. The details of these allegations have not been posted, for good and obvious reasons. Pete has nevertheless been put in the highly unfair position of having to defend himself in public against broad, vague, and in some cases anonymous accusuations. The facts of the matter aside, the potential for damage to his reputation makes this an unsatisfactory way to deal with such issues. The public suggestion, again by an admin, that his conduct may have been legally actionable was extremely innappropriate.
Meanwhile, bandwidth is again/still being chewed up with unseemly controversy, and Dr. Piton's fans wait in vain for him to turn his full attention to the forum.
Trevor, please consider adopting the following additional rules/procedures:
1. Rc.com admins (and possibly moderators as well) should not be permitted to participate in forum discussions.
The loss of the admins' input would be unfortunate. I am not suggesting that these people, who work so unselfishly to make this site what it is, should be penalized for doing so. The problem, however, is that when a personal clash occurs involving an admin, the admin may appear to be acting under color of authority from you. This may give the admins' opinions unwarranted weight in the eyes of other users, and may reflect unfavorably on you and on the site as a whole.
An even more serious problem with having an admins in the fray is that it may provoke the admin to use his or her control over the site to stifle dissent or punish other users. That is exactly what occurred over this past weekend.
In other words, the only expressions of opinion from the staff of the site should be those which are clearly labelled as editorial comments and approved by you. Otherwise, management should maintain strict neutrality. You must run the site as the journalistic enterprise it is.
2. Accusations of misconduct on the part of any user should be made, countered and resolved privately, under your supervision.
Again, when unspecified but serious accusations are made in the forums, the potential damage to the accuseds' reputation is great. (Again, we could discuss the legalities of who could sue whom for what, as occurred in this case, but that is hardly what the community needs.) Even if all details are aired, having the dispute in public is likely to lead to unnecessary posturing and grandstanding, when the matter could otherwise be easily worked out among the parties involved.
Some things to think about. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.
Hans Chlorine
[ This Message was edited by: hanschlorine on 2001-11-21 10:29 ]
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sauron
Nov 21, 2001, 5:56 PM
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Quoth Hans Chlorine:
Quote:
Trevor, please consider adopting the following additional rules/procedures:
1. Rc.com admins (and possibly moderators as well) should not be permitted to participate in forum discussions.
The loss of the admins' input would be unfortunate. I am not suggesting that these people, who work so unselfishly to make this site what it is, should be penalized for doing so. The problem, however, is that when a personal clash occurs involving an admin, the admin may appear to be acting under color of authority from you.
...
An even more serious problem with having an admins in the fray is that it may provoke the admin to use his or her control over the site to stifle dissent. That is exactly what occurred over this past weekend.
As one of the few who's been on the 'net for far more moons than I can count - the answer to the above is (relatively) simple...
An admin that participates in the forum, acts and speaks solely for himself, unless it's explicitly stated that he acts/speaks as admin (and/or representative for rc.com, et al). Typically, in places like mailing lists, this is done by prefixing the admin's writing with words such as "Writing as List Owner: ..." - the same should be the case here.
To address your second concern - I would expect any admin here, be responsible, mature and adult enough to not abuse his access to power for personal gain - and, if (s)he does so, that they be relieved of their administrative duties ASAP.
Quote:
2. Accusations of misconduct on the part of any user should be made, countered and resolved privately, under your supervision.
Again, when unspecified but serious accusations are made in the forums, the potential damage to the accuseds' reputation is great.
I'll have to agree with you in part, on this one. Admin-user interactions when dealing with situations that can be disturbing to the community, should be done in private - part of being a professional is to act professionally - and airing someone else's dirty laundry is not the way to go.
- S. long-time internet underdog
[ This Message was edited by: sauron on 2001-11-21 09:58 ]
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krillen
Nov 21, 2001, 6:31 PM
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Trveor, you guys are doing a damn fine job here. Once and a while situations like this will arise when you are dealing with as many people/opinions as this place does.
I agree with the last statement about admins. posting their own opinions as themselves and specifying when they speak as admins. Hey they are people to right?
With as much turmoil as Pete has stirred up here, there is one thing remains constant and pretty much all can agree on: His Personal Knowledge Bank. he knows his stuff. But presentation is half the battle in a media situation like this. His antics have brought a massive rift in the once peaceful community here. Like it or not, THAT is fact. There is a fence and people are on either side, and that's not a healthy thing for free and easy exchange of ideas and opinons.
So why not hit the problem at the source and get the best of both worlds? My proposal: Let him write articles on what he knows, and post them as such. He can base his articles on questions posted in the aid forums. He gets to have his say, people get their aid questions answered, and it eliminates the conflict.
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climbinganne
Feb 23, 2004, 2:59 AM
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bump
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