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agdavis
Dec 12, 2011, 3:28 AM
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Today for the first time my quickdraw unclipped itself from the first bolt and went sliding down the rope. It was a petzl dirtbag draw. I'm certain that both the bolt and rope ends of the draw were clipped properly. It would have been a 25 ft groundfall. Luckily I was able to plug a cam about 10 feet later.
I'm assuming this has happened to other people... Does anyone know why this occurs? My only thought was that as the rope jiggled, it moved the bolt-side biner in a way that caused it to unclip itself, and I figured that the stiff dirtbag dogbone could have contributed to this.
Any thoughts?
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dindolino32
Dec 12, 2011, 3:46 AM
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were both gates facing the opposite direction of which you were climbing. Some people set draws facing opposite ways. That could cause a prob. Otherwise maybe your belayer was standing too far back from the wall, and possibly keeping you on a tight rope (which causes the draw to invert).
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notapplicable
Dec 12, 2011, 5:46 AM
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Yikes dude, that could have been a nasty fall. I always use two, opposite and opposed, draws to aviod there very thing. You might consider doing so going forward.
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agdavis
Dec 12, 2011, 6:00 AM
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notapplicable wrote: Yikes dude, that could have been a nasty fall. I always use two, opposite and opposed, draws to aviod there very thing. You might consider doing so going forward.
You clip two draws on every bolt as you climb?
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hafilax
Dec 12, 2011, 6:23 AM
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It's a low probability occurrence but it is possible for the gate to be opened by the bolt or the hanger. Wire-gates are especially bad for this which is why most people only use them for the rope end. I carry a draw with lockers for bolts or pieces where having the gate come open is not an option.
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notapplicable
Dec 12, 2011, 6:58 AM
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agdavis wrote: notapplicable wrote: Yikes dude, that could have been a nasty fall. I always use two, opposite and opposed, draws to aviod there very thing. You might consider doing so going forward. You clip two draws on every bolt as you climb?
Yep. People don't really think about it but you can be 4 or even 5 bolts up on some routes and if one bolt unclips, you're gonna deck. It's different on gear routes when you can exercise discretion on how it's protected but I'm not taking any chances on sport routes.
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 8:40 AM
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Dude, are you trolling us? :) Two draws on each bolt, that sounds like serious overkill with a pinch of paranoia, seasoned with shear horror.
Anyway, one of the friends I go climbing always switches the biners on the draws so the gates face different directions. I watched one unclip once some 10 feet below me, and I've been switching back biners before I go lead ever since. It's always a hot topic when we don't have anything else to throw profanity at each other about. So it does happen sometimes. Wiregates are more susceptible to getting caught in the bolt's screw threads or on other stuff. Take the rotation of the biner into consideration next time you clip. This does happen sometimes and can become risky.
Best of luck
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sungam
Dec 12, 2011, 9:15 AM
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notapplicable wrote: agdavis wrote: notapplicable wrote: Yikes dude, that could have been a nasty fall. I always use two, opposite and opposed, draws to aviod there very thing. You might consider doing so going forward. You clip two draws on every bolt as you climb? Yep. People don't really think about it but you can be 4 or even 5 bolts up on some routes and if one bolt unclips, you're gonna deck. It's different on gear routes when you can exercise discretion on how it's protected but I'm not taking any chances on sport routes.
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 9:48 AM
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sbaclimber wrote: irukandji wrote: Two draws on each bolt, that sounds like serious overkill with a pinch of paranoia, seasoned with shear horror. Yeah, no kidding!  That's why I just use 2 lockers on my draws.
Why not two draws, two lockers on each, opposite and opposed:D
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USnavy
Dec 12, 2011, 10:50 AM
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How about two opposite and opposed steel locking biners with 5/8" steel cable for a dogbone with 3/4" glue in bolts placed in pairs, clipped to a set of half ropes tied into two separate harnesses with two separate belayers each of which has two opposite and opposed steel locking biners to belay with who are tied into the ground via a four point bolted anchor made up of 5/8" bolts and 13mm static rope, perfectly equalized?
Hows that for a run on sentence?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 12, 2011, 10:58 AM)
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 11:13 AM
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What, no parachute and safety-net? Weak, dude, that's just weak and reckless 
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JAB
Dec 12, 2011, 1:09 PM
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Half ropes are really stretchy which is a problem down low, so I would place at least half a dozen of pads to protect the first couple of moves.
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 1:26 PM
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Ok, now leaving the funny-stuff aside, some stuff I practice and find to keep me quite safe:
If you've got a micro-crux right at the beginning, don't be a fool and break your ankle when you can use a stick to clip the first draw. You'll be wishing you haven't flexed your balls in the hospital.
If the first clip is too far off the deck, consider slinging stuff. A cord slung around a chunk of rock is better than nothing and just might save your bacon.
Watch out for back-clipping. I've read it carries high failure rate, so I avoid it like the plague. Just be careful when you clip, it's that simple.
Consider rope-stretch.
Consider the biners spinning off, as was discussed in this thread.
If the first moves are dangerous, have your belayer spot you in case you deck, even if it's only 6 feet. The hospital bill and the no-climb-for-some-time just ain't worth it.
Avoid being macho to impress the ladies. Accidents DO happen.
If you have an extra anchor you can use in the belay station, by all means use it. It doesn't take that much time.
AND
Never confuse cowardice for being smart. If you're good enough and you take full responsibility, go right ahead, but if you have doubts, it's better to be safe than sorry. Never preach unsafe practice on the grounds that it's manlier to do it the wrong way. The ground doesn't really care how brave you were up there just before you hit it.
Protect your parents' investment in your up-bringing and education. Be safe, climb smart, stay alive.
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notapplicable
Dec 12, 2011, 2:17 PM
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irukandji wrote: Dude, are you trolling us? :) Two draws on each bolt, that sounds like serious overkill with a pinch of paranoia, seasoned with shear horror. Anyway, one of the friends I go climbing always switches the biners on the draws so the gates face different directions. I watched one unclip once some 10 feet below me, and I've been switching back biners before I go lead ever since. It's always a hot topic when we don't have anything else to throw profanity at each other about. So it does happen sometimes. Wiregates are more susceptible to getting caught in the bolt's screw threads or on other stuff. Take the rotation of the biner into consideration next time you clip. This does happen sometimes and can become risky. Best of luck
Whatever dude. I do it for the same reason I climb on twins. Redundancy.
I'm not saying anyone else has to do it, I just offered the suggestion since the OP already had one close call. If you guys want to take those kinds of risks its up to you.
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 2:44 PM
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notapplicable wrote: irukandji wrote: Dude, are you trolling us? :) Two draws on each bolt, that sounds like serious overkill with a pinch of paranoia, seasoned with shear horror. Anyway, one of the friends I go climbing always switches the biners on the draws so the gates face different directions. I watched one unclip once some 10 feet below me, and I've been switching back biners before I go lead ever since. It's always a hot topic when we don't have anything else to throw profanity at each other about. So it does happen sometimes. Wiregates are more susceptible to getting caught in the bolt's screw threads or on other stuff. Take the rotation of the biner into consideration next time you clip. This does happen sometimes and can become risky. Best of luck Whatever dude. I do it for the same reason I climb on twins. Redundancy. I'm not saying anyone else has to do it, I just offered the suggestion since the OP already had one close call. If you guys want to take those kinds of risks its up to you.
Just having a little fun, sorry if it annoyed you:) Whatever makes you feel safe works. I personally have a really hard time concentrating on the climb when I'm scared shitless 'cause the last piece of pro just popped out. And you don't give the doctor any money so you can buy more gear! 
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LostinMaine
Dec 12, 2011, 3:12 PM
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Maybe it felt as if it was clipped properly, but perhaps the notch of the carabiner nose got caught on the bolt and the gate never fully closed?
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irukandji
Dec 12, 2011, 3:21 PM
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Leaving biners actually open when you think they're safe is pretty dangerous as well, that's why you gotta instinctively check your placements. If the biner doesn't close properly, it will only hold about a third of its rated strength (check the biner's spine for the ratings). What lena posted was pretty good advice. To that I would add:
If a backlip has occured, in order not to unclip the rope and risk dipping like that, place a correct draw over the bad draw (double it up) and remove the bad (back-clipped) draw.
Stuff like this can get pretty serious so I wouldn't ignore it.
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mr_rogers
Dec 12, 2011, 3:53 PM
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I once had a draw unclip from a cam!
I had placed the cam below a roof at Seneca, clipped the nylon sling of the cam with a draw, pulled the roof, and then had my partner inform me that the draw had unclipped from the cam and slid down the rope.
Later, we spent some time trying to figure out what could have happened. We even examined the photos taken by the third member of our team to see if he had captured the process of the draw unclipping. In the end, we only had a bunch of equally plausible theories and the conclusion that 'shit happens, be careful'
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potreroed
Dec 12, 2011, 6:02 PM
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I often use a draw with locking 'biners on the first bolt.
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agdavis
Dec 12, 2011, 6:04 PM
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I think this is what may have happened. Good article from a credible source. Thanks.
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Marylandclimber
Dec 12, 2011, 8:33 PM
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That sounds the best reply to me...
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jt512
Dec 12, 2011, 9:35 PM
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agdavis wrote: Today for the first time my quickdraw unclipped itself from the first bolt and went sliding down the rope. It was a petzl dirtbag draw. I'm certain that both the bolt and rope ends of the draw were clipped properly. It would have been a 25 ft groundfall. Luckily I was able to plug a cam about 10 feet later. I'm assuming this has happened to other people... Does anyone know why this occurs? My only thought was that as the rope jiggled, it moved the bolt-side biner in a way that caused it to unclip itself, and I figured that the stiff dirtbag dogbone could have contributed to this. Any thoughts?
The only times I've seen a draw unclip, other than in a fall, is when the climber kicked it while passing it. Even if you don't kick it completely off, you can kick it so that it gets stuck on the bolt with the gate open, allowing rope drag to completely dislodge it as you continue to climb. The climber can be completely oblivious to the situation.
Jay
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JaWiB
Dec 22, 2011, 5:34 AM
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Thought I'd add my 2c since I don't think anyone mentioned this, but I think the rope could also cause the quickdraw to unclip itself. Probably only a concern on routes that are less than vertical, but if you have the gate facing the rope as you traverse across the bolt, it can open the gate. This happened to me, but instead of unclipping the draw the rope clipped itself into the carabiner attached to the bolt.
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