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6pacfershur
Jan 3, 2012, 2:50 AM
Post #26 of 89
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you know you hit rock-bottom when you get flamed by guangzhou....
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petsfed
Jan 3, 2012, 3:02 AM
Post #27 of 89
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McMonk wrote: I appreciate your input, however, your response was a little off topic, as the question is do you think the gym rules were strict in comparison to gyms readers have had experiences at.
Sorry, I dropped an important phrase from my qualifier. "My experience from climbing gyms I've worked at:..."
I am the sort of safety nazi who would tell you that you didn't dress your knot perfectly (which you didn't if the gym guy had to correct it, and if you don't know why knot dressing can be important, then you really aren't in a position to criticize the rules that require it), although I make a point of explaining, when I teach these things, that it doesn't matter half as much as other parts of the knot. All of that said, if I signed off on a person who could not do things according to what our insurance policies demand of us, I would've made the gym, and by extension ME, liable for injuries incurred. You should check out BSA's old climbing policy (provided they've changed it since I cycled through that crap) and compare it to accepted practices today. The Boy Scouts were pretty bad about pulling "safety" rules more or less out of thin air, and I'm pretty glad that I never climbed with the Scouts outside of climbing gyms because of that.
I used to make it pretty clear that I needed to know that the climber understood what their commands meant, even if they weren't our standard, so the dude barking at you for using Spanish may have served to ensure that you weren't expressing "I'm thirsty" and "but I just went". I've climbed next to people who used "OK" for every single one of their commands, and it was a mess.
From my experience, a gym that isn't strict about their rules invites the sorts of accidents that strict rules are meant to prevent. To say nothing about liability and insurance requirements, being present for a bad accident can really mess a person up, doubly so if they are tasked with enforcing the rules.
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McMonk
Jan 3, 2012, 3:03 AM
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guangzhou wrote: I think his answer was spot on and on topic. I also think the belay test should be strict. It's easy to claim experience, but the staff doesn't know you from Adam. You didn't fail this test, you were critic and told what the gym expectations were several times. You went in thinking your knew something, you never asked the gym what their criteria are. Arrogant, from this post, I believe you are. Experienced in climbing, why, because you were a 16 year old on climbing staff at a BSA camp, please. Get over yourself. As a gym owner, I agree, 16 year old who walk in my facilities talking about all their knowledge are a bigger hazard than the 16 year old who have never touched a climbing rope. You passed the test, you're upset because you didn't 100% based on the staff critic. Guess what, regardless of finishing you associated degree at 16, you're not perfect.
I never offered my experience to any of the staff, simply made polite conversation. I'm not sure how you talk to people, but I don't make conversations about "me, me, me." I enjoy hearing about other people's climbing experiences.
I did in fact email the gym about their criteria before going, however, I never got a response. Sure, I didn't take the initiative to call, but I never said I was perfect.
I don't count my time working for the BSA has a big experience buff. I would draw my conclusion that "I'm not completely clueless" because I have taken classes from REI, EMS, and a rock gym.
It is also extremely easy to claim experience. For example: Some random guy on the internet could claim to be a gym owner whenever he wants.
Yes, I passed the test. However, I never realized I was upset. So thank you for telling me I was upset! Here I thought inquiring into the strictness of one gym verses other gyms was normal. Thanks for explaining that it makes me arrogant and upset!
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guangzhou
Jan 3, 2012, 3:23 AM
Post #29 of 89
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petsfed wrote: McMonk wrote: I appreciate your input, however, your response was a little off topic, as the question is do you think the gym rules were strict in comparison to gyms readers have had experiences at. Sorry, I dropped an important phrase from my qualifier. "My experience from climbing gyms I've worked at:..." I am the sort of safety nazi who would tell you that you didn't dress your knot perfectly (which you didn't if the gym guy had to correct it, and if you don't know why knot dressing can be important, then you really aren't in a position to criticize the rules that require it), although I make a point of explaining, when I teach these things, that it doesn't matter half as much as other parts of the knot. All of that said, if I signed off on a person who could not do things according to what our insurance policies demand of us, I would've made the gym, and by extension ME, liable for injuries incurred. You should check out BSA's old climbing policy (provided they've changed it since I cycled through that crap) and compare it to accepted practices today. The Boy Scouts were pretty bad about pulling "safety" rules more or less out of thin air, and I'm pretty glad that I never climbed with the Scouts outside of climbing gyms because of that.
May have a job managing a gym this time next year. Just in case you want to send your resume.
In reply to: I used to make it pretty clear that I needed to know that the climber understood what their commands meant, even if they weren't our standard, so the dude barking at you for using Spanish may have served to ensure that you weren't expressing "I'm thirsty" and "but I just went". I've climbed next to people who used "OK" for every single one of their commands, and it was a mess.
Very true. I was just having a conversation about this with a German Climber I climb with. His first day here, I introduced him to a Indonesian climber, I jokingly told the Indonesian the German doesn't speak English or Indonesian. The Indonesia's reply was textbook perfect, no language needed, just "on Belay" "Belay On" "Climbing" "Climb On" "Tension" is a bonus, but not so important today.
In the case of a safety or belay test, go with the basics. Keep Things Simple, show that you know what you're doing and can be trusted.
In my gym, we don't allow bowlines of any kind for tying in. Not because they are unsafe, but because I or my staff can't check them from across the room as easy as a Figure eight.
When I go climbing outside with my fiends and some partners, I use a Bowline. When I climb in the gym, I use and 8 with back-up.
In reply to: From my experience, a gym that isn't strict about their rules invites the sorts of accidents that strict rules are meant to prevent. To say nothing about liability and insurance requirements, being present for a bad accident can really mess a person up, doubly so if they are tasked with enforcing the rules.
Safety, safety, safety. In some cases, a gym teaching or expects things a certain way so new climbers who only climb in that facility can climb safely with others.
While you and I don't agree on politics and the economy, we seem to have very similar view on climbing. Guess we have the important stuff right.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 3, 2012, 3:25 AM)
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McMonk
Jan 3, 2012, 3:30 AM
Post #30 of 89
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I agree with you as far as BSA rules go. They are slowly becoming better, but there are still plenty of things that could do with some changing.
And I am not 100% sure what he changed in the knot. What I'm pretty sure happened is the knot was a symmetrical variant that didn't look right in his mind. However, I can't be entirely sure, and could be in the wrong. I do realize that the amount of asymmetry present in the knot has effects on the breaking strength.
EDIT: If anyone was looking for a numerical way to evaluate that: http://www.lmm.jussieu.fr/~audoly/publi/ACNKnots-07.pdf
Unfortunately, the qualifier doesn't change your ability to make judgments on 16 year old climbers. However, the final 3 paragraphs of your second post were what I was looking for, mind the part about BSA rules (Still was off topic?).
(This post was edited by McMonk on Jan 3, 2012, 3:35 AM)
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petsfed
Jan 3, 2012, 4:34 AM
Post #31 of 89
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McMonk wrote: Unfortunately, the qualifier doesn't change your ability to make judgments on 16 year old climbers.
Because personally interacting with dozens of them in the commercial gym environment, specifically in the role of a gym employee, is still not sufficient experience to say that IN MY EXPERIENCE, 16 year olds are almost uniformly (I throw in almost, as I recognize that 100% of the ones I've met doesn't necessarily imply 100% of all 16 year olds) arrogant pricks. Got it. Next you'll be telling me how my experience teaching climbing (and later physics) to college students has not provided me with any meaningful experience regarding how college students act.
I brought up the BSA because you brought up the BSA. I brought it up specifically to underscore that using the BSA as your principle climbing teaching experience is actually worse for your credibility than simply keeping your mouth shut, but also to emphasize that, provided you are as experienced as you claim, you're also well used to enforcing rules that seem needlessly strict, if not outright contrary to accepted practice elsewhere.
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McMonk
Jan 3, 2012, 5:18 AM
Post #32 of 89
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I don't recall bringing the BSA up as my principal climbing experience. If I made it sound that way I apologize, I figured I would throw that on there cause it was climbing related.
However, I agree with you about the quality of the BSA rules. In fact, I have written a couple of emails to BSA HQ about their rules. Most of the time they thank me for my concern and then that's the end of it. I went with my friend's troop on a climbing trip, which followed BSA rules, and I was mortified. The rules essentially allow people, with very little anchor knowledge to act as a guide for the troop. His Scout Master was in charge of setting anchors and what not. In the end I stuck to bouldering the whole day....
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guangzhou
Jan 3, 2012, 7:17 AM
Post #33 of 89
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McMonk wrote: I don't recall bringing the BSA up as my principal climbing experience. If I made it sound that way I apologize, I figured I would throw that on there cause it was climbing related.
In case you forgot what you wrote.
McMonk wrote: It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time. Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state: - I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years. - I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors - I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9 - I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff - I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc. SO I'm not completely clueless. I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say: Pre-Climb: On belay? :: Belay is on Permission to climb :: Climb away Climbing :: For Decent: "I use:" Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you." So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average? -MM
To me, the whole original post seems a bit arrogant.
You post a rant about how strict the gym you visited is, you list you climbing "history." Wonder if all gyms are so strict.
On your climbing resume, you bring up boy scout camp climbing staff to let us know how safe you are as a 16 year old, now you claim the safety standards of BSA are to relaxed and you bouldered all day when you troop was on a climbing trip.
As for me being who I claim to be, feel free to Google my name.
The stricter the gym makes the belay test, the better I feel climbing there. At my gym, when you take the test, the person giving you the test even holds a clip board with check list, reminds you you're taking a test and can't retake for 48 hours if you fail.
Anyone who has passed the belay test in my gym, regardless of how long they have been climbing, I am willing to let belay me without hesitation.
Emmanuel "Eman" Lacoste
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rsmillbern
Jan 3, 2012, 7:57 AM
Post #34 of 89
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Their house, their rules...
I have been annoyed with, what I considered, silly rules at gyms before, but as I have climbed at more gyms I don't mind so much. Living in Germany I have never been to a gym that had any test or check what so ever and I regularly see things that are, in my opinion, dangerous or, at the least bad practice.
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shockabuku
Jan 3, 2012, 1:44 PM
Post #35 of 89
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I'm generally more concerned with the employees ability to understand the importance of the different aspects of the test than how strict it is since there are a limitless number of variations in nuance that still allow for safe climbing.
In the day to day enforcement of safety, the employee, not the clipboard, is the one who - hopefully - is watching.
But then I just climb in gyms, I don't run them.
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calvo
Jan 3, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #36 of 89
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Dude no one is going to give you any slack. I got the same treatment playing Juniors at your age. The righteous are just jealous your young and full of opportunities they already had. I hope I am not such herp-derp when I am, "wise and experienced", but I probably will do the same :P
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camhead
Jan 3, 2012, 2:25 PM
Post #37 of 89
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I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules.
My solution is to only boulder when climbing inside.
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ChessRonin
Jan 3, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #38 of 89
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What concerns/bothers me more than strict rules is when gyms do not enforce their rules beyond the initial belay test, allowing people to engage in dangerous practices without even a comment.
As a new climber who's made mistakes (as most do), I hope for my own safety that people will tell me when what I'm doing is not safe. I try to do the same when I notice someone making critical errors (like belaying with an ATC while holding the brake strand completely vertical), but the gym staff should be the ones doing so, particularly since they certified that person as "safe."
(This post was edited by ChessRonin on Jan 3, 2012, 3:36 PM)
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agdavis
Jan 3, 2012, 3:54 PM
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My best guess is that the "odd" rules exist for one of two reasons. One, insurance requires it. I've heard this reason from gyms whose insurance mandates the use of grigris. Second, the owners may be wanting to create a higher barrier to entry. They might figure that knowing how to tie a double fishenan's backup is one more step advanced than a figure 8 follow-through in terms of climbing knowledge.
I would just deal with it. And get climbing outdoors safely.
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2012, 3:55 PM
Post #40 of 89
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camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules. My solution is to only boulder when climbing inside.
Yet another example of arbitrary ridiculous gym rules that may actually make the environment less safe.
Regarding gym rules being dictated by insurance companies... In my gym experience, which is extensive but admittedly potentially out of date, insurance companies that dictate specific gym rules are a myth.
What I have seen are insurance companies that require gyms to have risk-management plans (including rules) and that they follow them. But those plans are typically written by the gym itself, not the insurance company.
Examples of bad rules I've seen include requiring a specific belay device, which forces some customers to use hardware with which they may not be entirely familiar. Another example: it would be awesome if we all used the exact same commands, but the reality is different. Forcing a specific set of them increases the likelihood of miscommunication between partners who might otherwise have been just fine.
I understand the need for certain rules. But, IMO, the need for qualified, well-trained staff is much more urgent. No slate of rules can replace such a staff.
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2012, 3:58 PM
Post #41 of 89
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agdavis wrote: My best guess is that the "odd" rules exist for one of two reasons. One, insurance requires it. I've heard this reason from gyms whose insurance mandates the use of grigris.
See my post above. 
In reply to: Second, the owners may be wanting to create a higher barrier to entry. They might figure that knowing how to tie a double fishenan's backup is one more step advanced than a figure 8 follow-through in terms of climbing knowledge.
Maybe... despite the fact that in this case, the opposite is true.
In reply to: I would just deal with it. And get climbing outdoors safely.
On that, we most certainly agree.
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jt512
Jan 3, 2012, 5:41 PM
Post #42 of 89
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camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules.
That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope.
Jay
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camhead
Jan 3, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #43 of 89
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jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules. That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope. Jay
Pinch and slide was irrelevant here, because it was a toprope belay test.
Here are the details: the official gym method for toprope gri gri belaying was to *lock off* your brake (my right) hand down behind your hip ATC style, then bring your other (left)hand over to grasp the rope, pull in the slack, lock off with your left hand down around your right hip, and then walk the right hand up.
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petsfed
Jan 3, 2012, 7:34 PM
Post #44 of 89
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camhead wrote: Here are the details: the official gym method for toprope gri gri belaying was to *lock off* your brake (my right) hand down behind your hip ATC style, then bring your other (left)hand over to grasp the rope, pull in the slack, lock off with your left hand down around your right hip, and then walk the right hand up.
That's retarded.
If you do the BUS (Brake-Under-Slide) method with an ATC, you have to brake straight down, not to one side. Its a radical departure in terms of posture and body position, which is why I'd teach it in beginner classes, and if I was coaching somebody who had no clue, but wouldn't correct people who (like you) showed competency with the other technique, which most all climbers from the 90s learned.
With a gri-gri though, you have to use gri-gri specific techniques, and apparently the dude at this gym hadn't learned any of those.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Jan 3, 2012, 7:35 PM)
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jt512
Jan 3, 2012, 8:42 PM
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camhead wrote: jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules. That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope. Jay Pinch and slide was irrelevant here, because it was a toprope belay test.
Irrelevant for toprope? When my partner is moving quickly on TR, I just about always use the pinch-and-slide belay method with any belay device.
In reply to: Here are the details: the official gym method for toprope gri gri belaying was to *lock off* your brake (my right) hand down behind your hip ATC style, then bring your other (left)hand over to grasp the rope, pull in the slack, lock off with your left hand down around your right hip, and then walk the right hand up.
Well, that's a bit much. But the habit that some belayers have of shuffling their brake hand up the rope after pulling up rope is dubious. With an original Grigri, if the rope is thin or slick, if your partner falls while you're shuffling your hand up the rope, the rope can slip, and your partner may fall too far before you can react. With the Grigri 2, it's probably not as much an issue, since the Grigri 2 seems to lock up more reliably than the original.
Jay
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dagibbs
Jan 3, 2012, 8:44 PM
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I've climbed at a lot of gyms (42 as of posting), and I've found that lots of gyms have varying sets of arbitrary rules and better and worse ways of verifying that people know how to belay. What you described sounds completely within the range of normal for gyms -- nothing in that sequence would have bothered me.
I have been to gyms where they mandate a lesson, and charge for it.
I have been to gyms where they mandate a lesson, but give it for free. (At least one, where I talked to the manager, this was part of the insurance agreement. Risk management included all people will be instructed, if they instruct for free basic belay technique, then nobody will try to dodge the instruction to save the cost.)
I have been to gyms where they test, and charge for the test. Usually a nominal amount ($5), though occasionally more.
I have been to gyms where they test for free.
I have been to gyms where they didn't bother to test (me). (I have been to gyms where, after observing people belaying at the gym, I decided I would only boulder, and felt they really should have been testing.)
I have seen the testing range from strict to half-assed.
I have been to gyms where they only used floor-attached Gri-gris for belays.
I have been to gyms where they only used rope-attached Gri-gris for belays.
I have been to gyms where you used whatever device you brought, but must use a device.
I have been to gyms where you could belay with method you wished, and saw people belaying with a Munter Hitch.
I have yet to fail a belay test, but I've had occasional comments about style -- dressing the figure 8 for example.
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SylviaSmile
Jan 3, 2012, 8:46 PM
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McMonk wrote: It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time. Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state: - I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years. - I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors - I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9 - I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff - I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc. SO I'm not completely clueless. I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say: Pre-Climb: On belay? :: Belay is on Permission to climb :: Climb away Climbing :: For Decent: "I use:" Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you." So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average? -MM
Sounds pretty much like my gym. I didn't know use the backup double fisherman's knot either in the belay test, but still passed after the girl showed me what they wanted.
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camhead
Jan 3, 2012, 9:00 PM
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jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules. That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope. Jay Pinch and slide was irrelevant here, because it was a toprope belay test. Irrelevant for toprope? When my partner is moving quickly on TR, I just about always use the pinch-and-slide belay method with any belay device.
When you say "pinch" you mean "pinch the brake," no? Why on earth would you ever have to do that while TR belaying?
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iknowfear
Jan 3, 2012, 9:05 PM
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Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 670
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McMonk wrote: It's a long post, and I understand if you guys don't want to read the whole thing. For those who do, thank you for the time. Most of my climbing career has been spent at one gym, and one crag. So I figured that I would broaden my horizons and check out another gym by me. Now before I go into this story let me just state: - I have been *seriously* climbing for 2 years. - I have experience setting up outdoor TR anchors - I have lead climbing experience of a solid 5.7 and decent 5.8/9 - I have worked at a Boy Scout camp as climbing staff - I'm young, only 16 years old. :: Edit: Included to account for possible "This kid isn't capable of tying his own shoes" attitude. As noticed below from marc. SO I'm not completely clueless. I went to the gym and everything started out fine and dandy, then they asked that we (my partner and I) meet with a staff member for a belay test. I suspect it should be a snap. They don't allow you to use your own hardware here, as they have a ground anchor (daisy chain), screw gate carabiner, and BD ATC at each TR station. Okay I tell myself, no big deal. I begin my test, and pass with flying colors. As I'm doing what the staff member asks, I talk with him about his climbing experience (just to make small talk). He is new climber, with no outdoor, or lead experience. The final task was to tie in as a climber. Easy peasy right? I tie in, and I have the "fist" of tail after my figure eight, but not quite enough to tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He says "We require the backup knot here." I quickly correct it and tie a fisherman's knot as a back up. He then said "We require that you use a double fisherman's knot here." I sigh, and re-tie it with a double fisherman's. Then he says "Well that's correct, but I could critique the figure of eight if I wanted to." I look back at my knot, did I really mess it up? No. It was correct. I asked him what was wrong with it and he grabs the knot, flips a section over another, making a cosmetic change. Then he asked me "What are THE commands?" I say: Pre-Climb: On belay? :: Belay is on Permission to climb :: Climb away Climbing :: For Decent: "I use:" Aqui (Here) - To belayer, stating climber is ready to come down Listo (Ready)- To climber, stating belayer is ready for the climber to come down I use Spanish for lowering because it helps avoid confusion with other climbers. He said no. That I need to use "Take" and "I got you." So those were the rules at the gym. What do you guys think? Strict? Average? -MM
over here, lots of gyms have NO rules or checks.
just groundfalls.
seriously, if I had a dollar for every time a see a potential injury* due to a stupid mistake by climber or belayer, I would not have to pay much for entry. So far people react cool and thankful for a heads-up.
To sum up, the rules sound a bit over the top to me, but are far better than no rules.
*A short list includes: both hands on the non-braking part of the rope to give slack, shitloads of shakey high clipping with belayer standing far (3m+) from the wall with lots of slack, paralell rope handling on an ATC, ATC threaded like this: -(-)(-)- on a twisted harness, Toproping on a single quickdraw, etc. etc. etc.
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redlude97
Jan 3, 2012, 9:19 PM
Post #50 of 89
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Registered: Aug 27, 2008
Posts: 990
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camhead wrote: jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: I almost failed the belay test on a grigri at the Ohio State University climbing wall, because I did not put both hands on the brake side of the rope when I was moving them up. Gyms can have a lot of various, contrived, stupid rules. That's not contrived. With the original grigri you should always be holding the brake side of the rope firmly. That means to slide your brake hand up the rope you need to grasp the brake side of the rope with your other hand or use pinch-and-slide method. With the Grigri 2 there is probably less need to constantly maintain such a firm grip on the brake side of the rope. Jay Pinch and slide was irrelevant here, because it was a toprope belay test. Irrelevant for toprope? When my partner is moving quickly on TR, I just about always use the pinch-and-slide belay method with any belay device. When you say "pinch" you mean "pinch the brake," no? Why on earth would you ever have to do that while TR belaying?
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