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lonequail
Feb 3, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #26 of 46
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Top Three:
1. Creative routes. More specifically: a) routes that have the feel of real rock, b) surprises, c) different types of moves and sequences. Turn offs are routes deriving difficulty mainly from long reaches, small holds, or brute force.
2. High walls.
3. Good selection of cracks. Adjustable cracks are great!
Next Tier – I’ll frequent the gym with the following:
1. Convenient location.
2. Allot of routes accessible with auto-belays.
Other Considerations:
1. Good atmosphere – lighting, temperature, and tunes.
2. Rough texture for the walls and the holds, except for an occasional greaser. Slippery stuff makes me uncomfortable and leads to poor footwork.
3. Good mobile scenery.
4. Quality supplemental aerobics equipment. Don’t bother with the cheap stuff.
5. Not too crowded – probably contrary to profits though.
Sorry – this is more than 5.
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eric_k
Feb 3, 2012, 2:34 PM
Post #27 of 46
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1. Full weight room. The best gym I was ever regularly able to go to had a full set of free weights, kettle bells, bar weights and all the benches and bars needed to use them as well as space to use them.
2. Good programs, having regularly scheduled training classes. The same gym mentioned above offered "Mountain Fit" like classes 5 days a week as well as Core specific and women only classes. Great for getting to know others in your gyms as well as learning new workouts.
3. Lead ropes provided by the gym. I hate when gyms ask that you bring your own rope to lead climb. I think this is stupid and unsafe.
4. Provide tape and nail clippers. This is cheap and gives you an opportunity get to know the desk attendants.
5. Good children's programs. I am not talking about day care, but programs which actually allow the development of the kids into real climbers. The last gym I work at had One program which was basically day are, another which allow homeschool kids to receive grades and credit. Then an advanced kids/teenager program, and the official climbing team. I know people will complain all day about children's programs, but when they are done well the add a lot to the gym.
6. My number 6 is good open hours. I hate when gyms don't open until the even. I usually have most of my free time during the morning or day, so i don't like going to the gym in the evening.
Eric
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mojomonkey
Feb 3, 2012, 4:15 PM
Post #28 of 46
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eric_k wrote: 3. Lead ropes provided by the gym. I hate when gyms ask that you bring your own rope to lead climb. I think this is stupid and unsafe.
eric_k wrote: Provide tape and nail clippers. This is cheap and gives you an opportunity get to know the desk attendants.
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sungam
Feb 3, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #29 of 46
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eric_k wrote: 1. Full weight room. The best gym I was ever regularly able to go to had a full set of free weights, kettle bells, bar weights and all the benches and bars needed to use them as well as space to use them.
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cracklover
Feb 3, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #30 of 46
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I have only one, but it covers a lot of ground:
1 - LISTEN to your core members. I don't care how smart you think you are, or how many "great" ideas you have. Your core members know what kind of gym they want (even if they may not always express it in the best way) and if you don't provide it, I guarantee that sooner or later someone else will come along who will. I guess an addendum to this would be to give your members a good way to get feedback to you (web forum, suggestion board, round table, whatever floats your boat).
I can give plenty of examples of success and failure if you like.
Cheers,
GO
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flesh
Feb 3, 2012, 8:06 PM
Post #31 of 46
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guangzhou wrote: flesh wrote: guangzhou wrote: flesh wrote: I'm planning on starting a gym. Looking for feedback. There's all sorts of differences in gym around the country, some of you have been to many. I'd like to know the top five things you like about your gym, things that not every gym has. Also, the top five things you wish it had that you've seen or heard about elsewhere. Thanks. Yes. Depending on how you define area, there are more than one. Some questions I have for you before I can make any recommendations: Demographics of your location. (Feel free to share actual location) Is there already an existing climbing community or will your gym be the start of the climbing community in the area? Those two questions in my opinion determine everything about how you'll run and set up your gym. From how often you change routes to their difficulty level. The gym is only the face of the business, a great gym revolves around a great program. Program meaning what the gym does, not what the gym has. I've visit some gym that had next to nothing in terms of facility, but they had very loyal and dedicated members because the management, maybe owners, had great programs. Give me the answer to the first tow questions I posed and I give you some simple answers. First of all, thanks everyone who's contributed, I am reading and taking note of everything. I own a few businesses that are successful, however my dream has always been to own a climbing gym. My loves in life have been climbing and business for the last 12 years and I'm excited to combine them. Guangshou, There is already a rapidly growing number of climbers in the area. In the last 15 years, within a 20 mile radius, total climbing gym memberships have gone from 600 to 2700. In the last five years from 1800 to 2700. I won't be disclosing the location. It will likely be in a 15-20k sq. foot building and the lead are will have a 50 ft. vertical gain, some of the boulders will have top outs/mantles. I will be owning/designing the building myself, new construction. I have one world cup setter from euro and one established setter who's been traveling to gyms around the country setting for 5 years who've committed to work with me. They are working with me on design as well. Also, my main business is marketing, so I have some marketing tricks up my sleeve to open with a bang. Feel free to pm me. Thanks. So there is an existing gym in the area already?
Yes, depending on how you define area, there are more than one.
(This post was edited by flesh on Feb 3, 2012, 8:07 PM)
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flesh
Feb 3, 2012, 8:11 PM
Post #32 of 46
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cracklover wrote: I have only one, but it covers a lot of ground: 1 - LISTEN to your core members. I don't care how smart you think you are, or how many "great" ideas you have. Your core members know what kind of gym they want (even if they may not always express it in the best way) and if you don't provide it, I guarantee that sooner or later someone else will come along who will. I guess an addendum to this would be to give your members a good way to get feedback to you (web forum, suggestion board, round table, whatever floats your boat). I can give plenty of examples of success and failure if you like. Cheers, GO
Hopefully I don't come off as a know it all, I approach all of my businesses with caution and I am usually humbled by the fear involved, luckily, they've always been a success.
I assumed because I am the definition of a "core" member, in my mind anyway, that I could identify with them. I've been a gym member for 15 years, at 3 different gyms of various size and different attributes.
That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears.
With a climbing gym, where your dealing with long term customer, it's critical that you build a strong relationship. If you have any solutions to this challenge, I'd love to hear them.
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cracklover
Feb 3, 2012, 8:40 PM
Post #33 of 46
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flesh wrote: That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears.
Okay, here's an example.
BITD, it was rare for US gyms to have much in the way of lead climbing. Ok, so times change, and around 20 years ago, members of a gym start clamoring to be allowed to lead.
Well the owner knows that leading indoors is stupid, and his gym isn't really very tall, so toproping makes much more sense. He tells members their request is stupid. Anyway, his gym is the only game in town, so members grumble but comply.
Okay, leading is just one example - there were people calling for topouts to the boulder problems, and lots of other little things. No one group was large enough to force him into doing anything he didn't want to, so everyone kept grumbling but climbing there.
So, nearly a decade goes by, and then, suddenly, up springs a gym in the neighborhood that, surprise surprise, satisfies all those myriad requests. Ooh, and it's all shiny and new. Well what do you know, nearly everyone has a good reason to desert the old gym, and the owner is forced to sell it or close down.
Now get this - the gym already *had* a lead wall. He had to set it up for his team. But since "leading inside is stupid" he never allowed general members to lead on the bolts. Sure, he might have had to pay higher insurance, and he might have had to shell out a few bucks to update his waivers and the software used to store the data. I bet that seemed like a small price to pay in retrospect.
GO
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flesh
Feb 4, 2012, 2:30 AM
Post #34 of 46
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cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears. Okay, here's an example. BITD, it was rare for US gyms to have much in the way of lead climbing. Ok, so times change, and around 20 years ago, members of a gym start clamoring to be allowed to lead. Well the owner knows that leading indoors is stupid, and his gym isn't really very tall, so toproping makes much more sense. He tells members their request is stupid. Anyway, his gym is the only game in town, so members grumble but comply. Okay, leading is just one example - there were people calling for topouts to the boulder problems, and lots of other little things. No one group was large enough to force him into doing anything he didn't want to, so everyone kept grumbling but climbing there. So, nearly a decade goes by, and then, suddenly, up springs a gym in the neighborhood that, surprise surprise, satisfies all those myriad requests. Ooh, and it's all shiny and new. Well what do you know, nearly everyone has a good reason to desert the old gym, and the owner is forced to sell it or close down. Now get this - the gym already *had* a lead wall. He had to set it up for his team. But since "leading inside is stupid" he never allowed general members to lead on the bolts. Sure, he might have had to pay higher insurance, and he might have had to shell out a few bucks to update his waivers and the software used to store the data. I bet that seemed like a small price to pay in retrospect. GO
Yes, agree, the old school mentality is quickly becoming obsolete. I don't see any business sense is building something that's not future proof. It should be as good or better than any other gym in any area. That means taller walls, lead areas, mantles for top outs in some areas and quality setting with great customer service. Great holds as well. Plus some other things...
Moving things beyond the current model, I have some ideas that i'm very excited about.
Thanks for the input.
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gosharks
Feb 4, 2012, 2:43 AM
Post #35 of 46
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flesh wrote: There is already a rapidly growing number of climbers in the area. In the last 15 years, within a 20 mile radius, total climbing gym memberships have gone from 600 to 2700. In the last five years from 1800 to 2700. I won't be disclosing the location. It will likely be in a 15-20k sq. foot building and the lead are will have a 50 ft. vertical gain, some of the boulders will have top outs/mantles. I will be owning/designing the building myself, new construction.
Yeah, a nice gym with ropes in that general area would be quite competitive.
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guangzhou
Feb 4, 2012, 3:05 AM
Post #36 of 46
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So let me see if Understand all this correctly.
You are a climber and you have spent time climbing in gyms too.
You have "several successful businesses already."
The area you are looking at already has a gym.
The gym also told you how many members they have. (Strange, but OK)
If all this is correct, my new questions are.
Are you building this new business to actually make money? The single most important question at this point.
Instead of asking on this site, why aren't you looking at what is most popular at the existing gyms? Improve on what works there and drop what doesn't. (Find your own niche)
Lead, boulder, top-rope: some like it, others don't understand it. Don't rule out any of them if you're in business. Unless you are creating a Bouldering gym only.
Programs, Programs, programs, can't stress this enough. From beginner to advance, people generally like programs. The ones who don't will avoid them.
Like any business, you can't please everyone. Especially climbers.
Taller wall are great, but they add all type of cost. From electricity to increased number of handholds. Higher wall are also intimidating to new climbers. Like it or not, new climbers is where you make your money.
European route setter, gyms and routes are very different over in Europe. Pros and cons. Completion route setter, make sure he can cater to new and average climbers. Routes below 5.11 see 90% of the traffic. (Same outdoors actually)
If you want to make real money, consider a location out of the U.S. and Europe. South America and South East Asia has plenty of room for growth and high return.
eman
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cracklover
Feb 4, 2012, 6:06 PM
Post #37 of 46
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flesh wrote: cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears. Okay, here's an example. BITD, it was rare for US gyms to have much in the way of lead climbing. Ok, so times change, and around 20 years ago, members of a gym start clamoring to be allowed to lead. Well the owner knows that leading indoors is stupid, and his gym isn't really very tall, so toproping makes much more sense. He tells members their request is stupid. Anyway, his gym is the only game in town, so members grumble but comply. Okay, leading is just one example - there were people calling for topouts to the boulder problems, and lots of other little things. No one group was large enough to force him into doing anything he didn't want to, so everyone kept grumbling but climbing there. So, nearly a decade goes by, and then, suddenly, up springs a gym in the neighborhood that, surprise surprise, satisfies all those myriad requests. Ooh, and it's all shiny and new. Well what do you know, nearly everyone has a good reason to desert the old gym, and the owner is forced to sell it or close down. Now get this - the gym already *had* a lead wall. He had to set it up for his team. But since "leading inside is stupid" he never allowed general members to lead on the bolts. Sure, he might have had to pay higher insurance, and he might have had to shell out a few bucks to update his waivers and the software used to store the data. I bet that seemed like a small price to pay in retrospect. GO Yes, agree, the old school mentality is quickly becoming obsolete. I don't see any business sense is building something that's not future proof. It should be as good or better than any other gym in any area. That means taller walls, lead areas, mantles for top outs in some areas and quality setting with great customer service. Great holds as well. Plus some other things... Moving things beyond the current model, I have some ideas that i'm very excited about. Thanks for the input.
Hmm... I'm afraid you totally missed the point of my story. When he built the gym, it was forward-thinking, and as good or better than any other gym in any area. The point is that as time went on, there were *new* things, than he never could have anticipated needing. Fortunately for him, he had an avenue for people to give him the feedback he needed, and he was well positioned to be able to respond to some of it for little or no cost. Unfortunately, he was too pig-headed to listen.
The point is, no matter how convinced you are that the way you are doing things is the "right" way - be prepared to listen to your members, and put your ego aside when you need to. This goes for little things (like - "give us more jug-hauls on the big overhang") as well as big things.
GO
(edited typo)
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 4, 2012, 6:07 PM)
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flesh
Feb 4, 2012, 10:02 PM
Post #38 of 46
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cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears. Okay, here's an example. BITD, it was rare for US gyms to have much in the way of lead climbing. Ok, so times change, and around 20 years ago, members of a gym start clamoring to be allowed to lead. Well the owner knows that leading indoors is stupid, and his gym isn't really very tall, so toproping makes much more sense. He tells members their request is stupid. Anyway, his gym is the only game in town, so members grumble but comply. Okay, leading is just one example - there were people calling for topouts to the boulder problems, and lots of other little things. No one group was large enough to force him into doing anything he didn't want to, so everyone kept grumbling but climbing there. So, nearly a decade goes by, and then, suddenly, up springs a gym in the neighborhood that, surprise surprise, satisfies all those myriad requests. Ooh, and it's all shiny and new. Well what do you know, nearly everyone has a good reason to desert the old gym, and the owner is forced to sell it or close down. Now get this - the gym already *had* a lead wall. He had to set it up for his team. But since "leading inside is stupid" he never allowed general members to lead on the bolts. Sure, he might have had to pay higher insurance, and he might have had to shell out a few bucks to update his waivers and the software used to store the data. I bet that seemed like a small price to pay in retrospect. GO Yes, agree, the old school mentality is quickly becoming obsolete. I don't see any business sense is building something that's not future proof. It should be as good or better than any other gym in any area. That means taller walls, lead areas, mantles for top outs in some areas and quality setting with great customer service. Great holds as well. Plus some other things... Moving things beyond the current model, I have some ideas that i'm very excited about. Thanks for the input. Hmm... I'm afraid you totally missed the point of my story. When he built the gym, it was forward-thinking, and as good or better than any other gym in any area. The point is that as time went on, there were *new* things, than he never could have anticipated needing. Fortunately for him, he had an avenue for people to give him the feedback he needed, and he was well positioned to be able to respond to some of it for little or no cost. Unfortunately, he was too pig-headed to listen. The point is, no matter how convinced you are that the way you are doing things is the "right" way - be prepared to listen to your members, and put your ego aside when you need to. This goes for little things (like - "give us more jug-hauls on the big overhang") as well as big things. GO (edited typo)
Gotcha.
In otherwords small issues being communicated by the core group can quickly become big issues. Keeping them happy may do the opposite.
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cracklover
Feb 5, 2012, 4:35 PM
Post #39 of 46
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flesh wrote: cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: cracklover wrote: flesh wrote: That being said, if you can expand on your point, i'm all ears. Okay, here's an example. BITD, it was rare for US gyms to have much in the way of lead climbing. Ok, so times change, and around 20 years ago, members of a gym start clamoring to be allowed to lead. Well the owner knows that leading indoors is stupid, and his gym isn't really very tall, so toproping makes much more sense. He tells members their request is stupid. Anyway, his gym is the only game in town, so members grumble but comply. Okay, leading is just one example - there were people calling for topouts to the boulder problems, and lots of other little things. No one group was large enough to force him into doing anything he didn't want to, so everyone kept grumbling but climbing there. So, nearly a decade goes by, and then, suddenly, up springs a gym in the neighborhood that, surprise surprise, satisfies all those myriad requests. Ooh, and it's all shiny and new. Well what do you know, nearly everyone has a good reason to desert the old gym, and the owner is forced to sell it or close down. Now get this - the gym already *had* a lead wall. He had to set it up for his team. But since "leading inside is stupid" he never allowed general members to lead on the bolts. Sure, he might have had to pay higher insurance, and he might have had to shell out a few bucks to update his waivers and the software used to store the data. I bet that seemed like a small price to pay in retrospect. GO Yes, agree, the old school mentality is quickly becoming obsolete. I don't see any business sense is building something that's not future proof. It should be as good or better than any other gym in any area. That means taller walls, lead areas, mantles for top outs in some areas and quality setting with great customer service. Great holds as well. Plus some other things... Moving things beyond the current model, I have some ideas that i'm very excited about. Thanks for the input. Hmm... I'm afraid you totally missed the point of my story. When he built the gym, it was forward-thinking, and as good or better than any other gym in any area. The point is that as time went on, there were *new* things, than he never could have anticipated needing. Fortunately for him, he had an avenue for people to give him the feedback he needed, and he was well positioned to be able to respond to some of it for little or no cost. Unfortunately, he was too pig-headed to listen. The point is, no matter how convinced you are that the way you are doing things is the "right" way - be prepared to listen to your members, and put your ego aside when you need to. This goes for little things (like - "give us more jug-hauls on the big overhang") as well as big things. GO (edited typo) Gotcha. In otherwords small issues being communicated by the core group can quickly become big issues. Keeping them happy may do the opposite.
Yeah, something like that.
GO
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dagibbs
Feb 7, 2012, 5:12 AM
Post #40 of 46
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flesh wrote: I'm planning on starting a gym. Looking for feedback. There's all sorts of differences in gym around the country, some of you have been to many. I'd like to know the top five things you like about your gym, things that not every gym has. Also, the top five things you wish it had that you've seen or heard about elsewhere. Thanks.
Hm...
1. Good route setting. Creative route setting: my main gym doesn't have the best actual walls -- but their route-setters manage to do interesting things with them. By that, I mean interesting movement, things that are made difficult by requiring technique, balance, body position, footwork and/or flexibility rather than just longer reaches on smaller holds. And setting on even easier climbs (5.5 - 5.8) that still encourages different types of movement and different ways of using the holds.
2. Friendly helpful staff. They smile, they say hello, they learn regular's names. And, if someone comes to them with an issue, they do something. (Tape peeled off a route, a hold spinning, route not marked properly, grade seems off. Whatever. They're willing to do that little fix.)
3. The other climbers there. Somehow the gym has a friendly, not very elitist, attitude that is welcoming.
4. Reasonably frequent updating of routes. There has to be a balance between enough new stuff and my project sticking around long enough for me to actually work and finish it.
5. Reasonable annual membership cost. And lots of free parking.
Other things that I've admired in other gyms:
1. Lots of height.
2. A good variance in wall angle -- not just everything overhanging, but bulges, dihedrals, aretes, off-vertical dihedrals & aretes, etc.
I've seen gyms with "natural" looking rock -- built-in holds, etc. This is great if I'm visiting town for a week, and only going to climb at the gym once or twice -- but for long term, it greatly limits what can be done route-setting on that wall. There are fewer places for holds, and less that can be done to do something different.
Something I don't see enough, or rarely see done well, but would appreciate is non-beginner slab (that is, less than vertical) walls. Most gyms that have anything less than vertical, they plaster huge jugs all over it, and it is the little kids' wall/beginners. Sure... having such for the kids/beginners is great. But, challenging slab routes would be really nice to have, too.
Reasonable belay testing and instruction are important. I dislike any gym that has a mandatory fee-paid belay check/lesson. Mandatory test, sure. But don't make me pay for it. (And, as one gym near here was great with, they both charged for the belay test, and you had to do it between 4pm and 7pm -- though the gym was open until 11pm or so. I don't climb there.) My gym gives free belay lessons -- this is great for encouraging beginners and to make it such that people will learn. If they have to pay to learn, they may try to learn from their buddy; if they need to pay to test, they may try to skip the test.
(Actually, there are three gyms in my area. The closest to my house I won't climb at. One I have a membership at -- my home gym. The other I have a punch-pass at, and I lead climb there. They let me lead belay with an ATC.)
[I've climbed at some 40+ gyms, mostly across the USA, but a few in Canada and Europe.]
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Khoi
Feb 7, 2012, 10:47 AM
Post #41 of 46
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mojomonkey wrote: eric_k wrote: 3. Lead ropes provided by the gym. I hate when gyms ask that you bring your own rope to lead climb. I think this is stupid and unsafe. I'd much rather have my own - who knows what kind of crappy handling, dried out / fuzzed out rope I might end up with? Or have to wait for while some dude is taking practice whippers on it? Top rope is one thing, but I'd prefer my own rope for leading.
How about draws?
Do you prefer to use your own draws for leading in the gym as well?
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flesh
Feb 7, 2012, 7:51 PM
Post #42 of 46
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Khoi wrote: mojomonkey wrote: eric_k wrote: 3. Lead ropes provided by the gym. I hate when gyms ask that you bring your own rope to lead climb. I think this is stupid and unsafe. I'd much rather have my own - who knows what kind of crappy handling, dried out / fuzzed out rope I might end up with? Or have to wait for while some dude is taking practice whippers on it? Top rope is one thing, but I'd prefer my own rope for leading. How about draws? Do you prefer to use your own draws for leading in the gym as well?
You can't get insurance without the gym providing draws here.
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Alexdi
Feb 24, 2012, 3:38 AM
Post #43 of 46
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My gym is Stone Summit.
Things I like:
* Route variety even in the same grade
* Tall routes
* Fairly smooth progression in difficulty
* Competent staff
* Pricing is moderate. It used to be great, but even now, it's still competitive.
* Parking always free and available
* Good restrooms / showering facilities
* Good lighting, fairly clean
* That there's always something else to do or progress to (top-roping, leading, bouldering, strength moves/holds, cardio, weights, yoga, spinning, watching the other climbers from above)
Things I don't like / wish it had:
* Gym shoes aren't replaced often enough and sometimes have limited sizing. If I can touch the wall through the shoe, it's gone bad.
* Bouldering wall is impenetrable. Doing any route takes five minutes of staring to figure where the holds are.
* Not enough lead ropes.
* Gym has dumbells that are never used, but no proper squat rack or Olympic bars. Hack squat machines suck.
* Can be a bit crowded in the evenings.
In truth, it's such a good facility that only the lack of the squat rack really bothers me. I don't like paying a gym rate for a place that might have to be accompanied by another gym for a full workout.
(This post was edited by Alexdi on Feb 24, 2012, 3:43 AM)
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saint_john
Feb 24, 2012, 1:25 PM
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1. Big ass top out boulder
2. Seperate area for b-day parties and 1st timer classes
3. Tall walls (40' +)
4. Good HVAC & lighting
5. Lots of sq footage
Good luck with your project, Flesh!
The indoor climbing business is booming right now. A year ago there was one gym in my town. The owners of that gym opened a second location last Summer. Next month, a different company is going to open yet another gym.
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surfstar
Feb 24, 2012, 4:02 PM
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The Budweiser Arch rope swing - prepares you for the real thing.
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saint_john
Feb 24, 2012, 6:10 PM
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saint_john wrote: 1. Big ass top out boulder 2. Seperate area for b-day parties and 1st timer classes 3. Tall walls (40' +) 4. Good HVAC & lighting 5. Lots of sq footage Good luck with your project, Flesh! The indoor climbing business is booming right now. A year ago there was one gym in my town. The owners of that gym opened a second location last Summer. Next month, a different company is going to open yet another gym.
oh yeah... good, professional routesetting is crucial. duh.
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