its commonly accepted that men are more predisposed towards risk taking overall

My husband just tld me he saw a documentary about risk that said there is a difference in endorphines produced between the genders.

How can we even say that someone has a high risk tolerance if they're not fulling accepting that there is risk?

One study (80's) seemed to think that In a mixed group women return to traditional gender roles and rate higher in risk taking and competitiveness in a same sex group. (business risks not sport.)

This makes sense to me. It dovetails with the findings that girls both participate more and do better in math classes in girls-only classrooms.

IOW, it sounds like, in the presence of boys, girls are less likely to take risks, such as being willing to either give the right answer and sound egg-headed, or give the wrong answer and sound stupid. Or that some increase in competitiveness in a same-sex environment causes the girls to overcome some of those fears.

I think this is why things like women-only climbing clinics can be so successful. Granted, for some women, the presence of men may not have the above effect (or may even be the reverse). But clearly for some or even most, there is a real and positive effect.

As a side note I'll mention that as pretty typical guy, it's kind of complicated. On the one hand, when girls are around, we can get dosed up on our own internal hormones and do stupid shit. But on the other hand, boys in single-sex settings tend to egg each other on, while the presence of girls (often) provides a more moderating influence.

GO

This discussion is incomplete without at least some mention of the fact that girls' fears of speaking out or other behaviors that we're calling "risky" for the sake of this conversation are not irrational or abstract fears. There is very real gender policing that goes on with respect to how girls are "supposed" to act, and girls who speak out or act out of compliance with this suffer real social consequences.

This gender policing comes from both males and females, but it's not some inborn retiring shyness on the part of girls and women. It is largely learned behavior that has been reinforced while more assertive behavior has been punished.

This discussion is incomplete without at least some mention of the fact that girls' fears of speaking out or other behaviors that we're calling "risky" for the sake of this conversation are not irrational or abstract fears. There is very real gender policing that goes on with respect to how girls are "supposed" to act, and girls who speak out or act out of compliance with this suffer real social consequences.

This gender policing comes from both males and females, but it's not some inborn retiring shyness on the part of girls and women. It is largely learned behavior that has been reinforced while more assertive behavior has been punished.

I wasn't trying to suggest that these fears are irrational. Without a doubt, they are at least as rational as the risks and rewards involved in climbing.


It stands to reason that it can't be inborn, otherwise where would the sudden ability to participate come from when the boys aren't there?

The interesting thing, at least from my perspective, is the fact that this policing into assigned gender roles can potentially break down when boys are removed completely from the equation.

GO

It seems that Risk Perception is greater in women but there is not as much difference in risk taking according to a 2011 Swedish survey.

That surveys show changes in time and racial groups it seems to be influenced by Social things more than biology even though there are some biological differences which may affect it.

One study (80's) seemed to think that In a mixed group women return to traditional gender roles and rate higher in risk taking and competitiveness in a same sex group. (business risks not sport.)

These studies though are on college students and That's very much a time where you are forming your identity and less confident, so more succeptable to conforming.

What to do?
Visualise you're with the girls and kick ass until it becomes programmed you can do it?

Self confidence is one of the most Important Precursors to success. Encourage others, Keep your internal dialogue positive.

To be blunt: women are socialized to believe that their value as persons and to society is contingent upon their value as sex objects. Of men.

I'm a bit surprised that this post has been up for a couple of days, and no-one has commented on it. It sure seems controversial to me, but do you all really feel that the following is such a no-brainer that it deserves no response?


To me, if the above is really true, it's horrifying, and I would never want to bring a female child into the world in such a society. Needless to say, *I* don't believe it. But I'm not a woman, so I have little insight into the messages you feel society is giving you.

GO

I'm a bit surprised that this post has been up for a couple of days, and no-one has commented on it. It sure seems controversial to me, but do you all really feel that the following is such a no-brainer that it deserves no response?


To me, if the above is really true, it's horrifying, and I would never want to bring a female child into the world in such a society. Needless to say, *I* don't believe it. But I'm not a woman, so I have little insight into the messages you feel society is giving you.

GO

Unfortunately it IS really true.

And these messages are internalized very very early. I obviously am trying to do my best to raise a daughter who doesn't measure her self-worth in terms of how appealing she is to men.

BUT...

Here is a story from last weekend that made people laugh, and made me cringe while laughing.

I was climbing with my two kids and a few friends. Heading out at the end of the weekend, we had a long-ish hike, really hot temperatures, and an uphill walk towards the end of the hike out.

Nothing terribly hard, but my daughter (who has made that hike multiple times before, from the time she was maybe 3yo) was feeling tired after diving off rocks and swimming in the lake for hours. So when the trail started going uphill, she was looking for some help.

She does know by now, that while I would have offered sympathy, maybe would taken her pack and would have walked slowly with her, there was no way I would be carrying her, 45 pounds and all. So she sidled up to the two guys who were hiking out with us, and made her best pitch for help.

Of course, what do you know? In a blink of an eye, one guy was carrying her backpack, and the other one had her riding on his shoulders.

I tried to interject, "hey, hey, she can walk, she really is not THAT tired" (we are not talking a little toddler, after all, and there was only a few hundred yards to go, and yes, I am an evil mom, I have had many years to get conditioned against fake whine). To which one guy responded saying "oh, no big deal, really, she hardly weighs anything" and the other one commented, "how can you resist a face like that?"

My daughter, riding comfortably on the shoulders of a backpack-carrying guy, is still young enough to innocently add a comment to that discussion, "Oh, I am so glad I am cute!"

Everyone laughed. It was one of those candid moments, with a little kid saying something that older person might have kept to him/herself. And really, she is awfully cute.

BUT... where did this come from? This concept that she is cute, and she should be thankful for it, that it gives her extra leverage when asking guys for things?

I'd like to think that this didn't come from me. But it came from somewhere... And it doesn't exactly make me happy.

And these messages are internalized very very early. I obviously am trying to do my best to raise a daughter who doesn't measure her self-worth in terms of how appealing she is to men.

...have fun living in fairy-tale land.

Unfortunately it IS really true.

And these messages are internalized very very early. I obviously am trying to do my best to raise a daughter who doesn't measure her self-worth in terms of how appealing she is to men.

BUT...

Here is a story from last weekend that made people laugh, and made me cringe while laughing.

I was climbing with my two kids and a few friends. Heading out at the end of the weekend, we had a long-ish hike, really hot temperatures, and an uphill walk towards the end of the hike out.

Nothing terribly hard, but my daughter (who has made that hike multiple times before, from the time she was maybe 3yo) was feeling tired after diving off rocks and swimming in the lake for hours. So when the trail started going uphill, she was looking for some help.

She does know by now, that while I would have offered sympathy, maybe would taken her pack and would have walked slowly with her, there was no way I would be carrying her, 45 pounds and all. So she sidled up to the two guys who were hiking out with us, and made her best pitch for help.

Of course, what do you know? In a blink of an eye, one guy was carrying her backpack, and the other one had her riding on his shoulders.

I tried to interject, "hey, hey, she can walk, she really is not THAT tired" (we are not talking a little toddler, after all, and there was only a few hundred yards to go, and yes, I am an evil mom, I have had many years to get conditioned against fake whine). To which one guy responded saying "oh, no big deal, really, she hardly weighs anything" and the other one commented, "how can you resist a face like that?"

My daughter, riding comfortably on the shoulders of a backpack-carrying guy, is still young enough to innocently add a comment to that discussion, "Oh, I am so glad I am cute!"

Everyone laughed. It was one of those candid moments, with a little kid saying something that older person might have kept to him/herself. And really, she is awfully cute.

BUT... where did this come from? This concept that she is cute, and she should be thankful for it, that it gives her extra leverage when asking guys for things?

I'd like to think that this didn't come from me. But it came from somewhere... And it doesn't exactly make me happy.

Just to be clear, we all have the same understanding of the phrase "contingent upon", right? It means that you are a sex object first and foremost, and can have absolutely no social standing or value to society unless you are willing to strut your stuff, and can demonstrate that men find you worth pursuing for sex. Only after passing that test can you have any additional value in society.

So, for example, you feel that no-one would be impressed if you could climb 5.14 if you're not "hot" too? That no-one would recognize your accomplishments in art, literature, science, or business, if you don't have a perky rack, and aren't willing to show it off?

I call BS.

Of course being attractive is a benefit in social standing. For both men and women - but sure - more so for women. But it is not the only determinant to your value as a person in society. Plenty of women who weren't head-turners have had major roles in society, have changed history. And they will continue to do so. To deny it, or to claim that society does not recognize them, is repugnant.

GO

For your climbing example, name one single pro climbing woman who isn't super conventionally attractive. For 5.14 climbers, who doesn't Josune get more press? Why did Lauren Lee get so much?

I'm a bit surprised that this post has been up for a couple of days, and no-one has commented on it. It sure seems controversial to me, but do you all really feel that the following is such a no-brainer that it deserves no response?


To me, if the above is really true, it's horrifying, and I would never want to bring a female child into the world in such a society. Needless to say, *I* don't believe it. But I'm not a woman, so I have little insight into the messages you feel society is giving you.

GO

Your story is funny, and cringeworthy... but it doesn't prove drivel's point. It shows that your daughter knows that being cute is an important factor, and she can exploit it to get her way. No-one would argue that *any* cute kid, whether a boy or a girl, wouldn't learn that lesson. What it doesn't show is that your daughter feels that it's the only important factor, or the only worth she has.

And, frankly, little kids really don't have very much else going for them, except their cuteness and the social standing of their parents.

As we get older, that changes, and we discover we have other powers. We don't have to always appeal upon our attractiveness to make our way in the world. Yes, I'll buy that for some girls, their transition into womanhood just feels like a transition of one type of cuteness to get their way into a new type of cuteness to get their way. But for many teenagers (and women) that's just not my experience of how they define themselves.

GO