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sbaclimber
Jul 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
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In reply to: Witnesses say the victim's fall was cushioned by a rock outcropping about half way down the [f]all. 
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jul 9, 2012, 11:07 AM)
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bassfreak
Jul 9, 2012, 5:26 PM
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Yea that was super awesome of them how they put it. I was the climber who fell/dropped in this story I figured it would make its way on here so I might as well reply. Anyways what happened or I assume happened from what everyone else has told me was, first I had a person who was new to belaying but still new how to belay so I felt safe I also know the guy well so I felt comfortable. Second I had just bought a smaller rope so he wasnt used to the speed that it fed through he was using an atc. Anyways I had just finished climbing Goodros wall at the storm mountian picnic area an awesome climb by the way and was being lowered this was all off of a top rope by the way at some point while he was lowering me I guess the rope burned his hand (no gloves on) and he panicked letting go of the rope. It was about a 25ft fall and I opted to call the paramedics because of distorted vision and friends telling me they could see my skull through a cut in the back of my head. Everything turned out well for me just a couple of staples, mild concussion, and a lot of jacked up muscles I hope to be back to climbing in a week or two. I hope someone takes something away from this go back to the basics look at belay technique make sure its well understood this is an easily avoidable situation that could have turned out worse then it did. Also I hope my ignorance encourages people to buy a helmet I'm going out today to get mine they can save your life. Feel free to message me if you have any questions on the incident. And I still dont know how a rock cushions you thanks ABC.
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gblauer
Moderator
Jul 9, 2012, 7:56 PM
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Hey...I am so glad that you are ok.
My belay partner dropped me and I broke my back. It's screwed with my "head" ever since. Be kind to yourself and allow the time to heal before you jump back on the rock.
Circle your wagons and be very selective about your belayers.
Best of luck to you,
Gail
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patto
Jul 9, 2012, 8:42 PM
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Thanks for posting. It is always good to hear about such incidents directly. Even better when it's confirmed that there was (mostly) no harm done. Heal up!
He may be your friend but now I am going to publicly admonish him. -Sorry.
bassfreak wrote: he was lowering me I guess the rope burned his hand (no gloves on) and he panicked letting go of the rope.
People like this scare me. I don't care how new to belaying you are. Yes people can screw up, particularly if not taught well or inexperienced. However anybody who panics and lets go is clearly placing their own mild discomfort above the life of another. Its not a quality I want in somebody that I climb with.
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majid_sabet
Jul 10, 2012, 12:56 AM
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You can use lower dia rope with ATC however, you need to redirect the flow of rope in to another carabiner to add extra friction.
I was belaying a friend on 8mm rope just recently and used an extra biner from leg loop and used gloves. using gloves should be an standard habit when belying any size rope .
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bearbreeder
Jul 10, 2012, 4:01 AM
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thank you for posting ... glad you are ok
if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity
- what diameter was the rope
- do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc
- was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide
thanks and best wishes
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socalclimber
Jul 10, 2012, 1:16 PM
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I was going to ask the very same questions. The one thing that is really scary these days is the blind trust people are placing on inexperienced belayers. If you are going to use one, make sure there is an extra hand around to act as a back up belay. It's such a simple way to keep things like this from happening.
The OP is correct that the smaller diameter ropes require a bit more attention.
Was the rope dry treated? If so, a new dry treated rope can be really slick.
Sounds like you got off lucky. Glad your ok!
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healyje
Jul 10, 2012, 2:40 PM
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bassfreak, glad you weren't hurt worse.
With regard to these questions, though:
In reply to: - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide
Outside of likely being contributing factors relative to a clearly inexperienced belayer, they should not distract from the fact the principal root causes here are inexperience and judgment. They would not be an issue of any kind with an experienced belayer and shouldn't be allowed to confuse the issues at hand in this case beyond simply acting as a precautionary heads up to new belayers.
The issue of judgment, however, is more difficult, especially for new and intermediate climbers. Simply put, though, you absolutely have to take as objective a stance as possible when it comes to leaving the ground.
Over the past couple of decades gym/sport climbing have very much altered climbing with it increasingly becoming a more social and group activity. And the close proximity and familiarity experienced in gyms can also affect our perceptions, even outside of close friendships or familial relationships. Climbing has similarly become much more familiar at large in our society and media and the perception of outright danger has also been lessened over time.
But this is where climbing isn't just dangerous, it's fundamentally and inescapably a life and death affair and you can't afford to let familiarity or inter-personal awkwardness of any kind whatsoever cloud your personal judgment around your own or your partner's safety.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 10, 2012, 2:45 PM)
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dagibbs
Jul 10, 2012, 3:55 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes
Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands?
I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2012, 4:06 PM
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dagibbs wrote: bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands.
All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions).
Jay
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dagibbs
Jul 10, 2012, 5:26 PM
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jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands. All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay
If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor.
And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well.
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jomagam
Jul 10, 2012, 5:33 PM
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dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands. All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor. And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well.
And you get a smooth lower with Jay's technique every time. Both hands are always on the rope with that one, so it's safer.
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dagibbs
Jul 10, 2012, 5:45 PM
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jomagam wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands. All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor. And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well. And you get a smooth lower with Jay's technique every time. Both hands are always on the rope with that one, so it's safer.
And, if you're inexperienced, and you're dealing with a rope that is thinner, or slicker, or the person you're lowering is heavier than you're used to, or for whatever reason, the rope feeds faster than you're expecting it, and it burns you and you let go, you have a dropped climber.
Yes, even if the rope is burning you, as a belayer you should hold on. But your natural istinct (and it is a strong one) is to let go of/drop something that is burning you.
Also, where did I suggest that you didn't have both hands on the rope at all times?
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jt512
Jul 10, 2012, 5:53 PM
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dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: bearbreeder wrote: thank you for posting ... glad you are ok if you could answer a question or two which would help satisfy my curiosity - what diameter was the rope - do you know if the belayer kept both hands below the atc - was it a standard atc, or something with more friction like an atc xp or guide thanks and best wishes Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands. All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor.
Sometimes we have occasion to lower off a single biner, don't we? On those rare occasions, when I have no redundancy, I want the force on that bolt and biner to be both as low and as constant as possible.
In reply to: And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well.
I don't want to be pretty smoothly lowered.
Jay
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jomagam
Jul 10, 2012, 5:57 PM
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dagibbs wrote: And, if you're inexperienced, and you're dealing with a rope that is thinner, or slicker, or the person you're lowering is heavier than you're used to, or for whatever reason, the rope feeds faster than you're expecting it, and it burns you and you let go, you have a dropped climber. Yes, even if the rope is burning you, as a belayer you should hold on. But your natural istinct (and it is a strong one) is to let go of/drop something that is burning you. Also, where did I suggest that you didn't have both hands on the rope at all times?
I'd argue that you want the most simple technique and fewest moving parts if you're so inexperienced. That is the slide technique.
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dagibbs
Jul 10, 2012, 6:42 PM
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jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: Also, did they lower by letting the rope slide through their hand or hands? I was taught that ATC (and other plate) lower technique involved the rope always being held in a hand, and any downward movement of the climber being done by the rope being fed through the device by arm motion, rather than by allowing slippage through the hands. All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay If you have to worry about the force on the anchor from lowering then there's something seriously wrong with your anchor. Sometimes we have occasion to lower off a single biner, don't we? On those rare occasions, when I have no redundancy, I want the force on that bolt and biner to be both as low and as constant as possible.
Last time I had to bail, I left a biner on the top two bolts. I don't like being on only one bolt. Then again, that might be over-protective, I'll fall on only one bolt if it is the first bolt of a climb. And if I think the bolt will catch a lead fall, then I'm sure it will hold for a choppy lower.
Same for a carabiner.
In reply to: In reply to: And, you can actually get a pretty smooth lower, not a choppy one, if you do it well. I don't want to be pretty smoothly lowered. Jay
I'd rather have a slightly choppy lower where the belayer always has full control than a smooth one with the risk they'll lose control.
Now, good solid belayers, with lots of practice -- sure go for the perfectly smooth lower. But if I'm dealing with a new(ish) belayer, then I'll take safety over smoothness. Then, as they learn the ropes, they can practice on being smoother.
jomagam wrote: I'd argue that you want the most simple technique and fewest moving parts if you're so inexperienced. That is the slide technique.
And I'm arguing for one that has less chance of failure.
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patto
Jul 10, 2012, 7:10 PM
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jt512 wrote: All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay
Oh dear. If you are that worried about unnecessary forces then you should rapping or self lowering!
Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope DYNAMIC friction. A static grip will not cause heat and will be stronger and more controllable.
EDIT: Added text to clarify.
(This post was edited by patto on Jul 11, 2012, 8:21 AM)
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jomagam
Jul 10, 2012, 7:25 PM
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patto wrote: Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction.
Really ? What stops the rope from slipping through your hands if not palm to rope friction ?
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bassfreak
Jul 10, 2012, 7:28 PM
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The rope wasn't much smaller just smaller then what the belayer had previously used it was a 9.4, belayer had only one hand below the atc with no glove on, it was on a standard atc. And the reason I had trust with the guy was first I've known him for a while and there were other more experience climbers around who were supposed to be watching him for any mistakes so that this wouldn't happen. There were 3 other climbers there who had the experience to know how to properly use the device and educate the belayer they apparently got side tracked and were talking because they assumed everything was under control. We all became complacent because everything had worked fine the previous times and the newer belay seemed to have a firm grasp on what to do and was displaying proper technique minus the lack of gloves. I feel the main reason this accident happened was first a lack of experience/supervision and myself becoming complacent thinking that since I'm not leading or setting gear, that I'm on a top rope what goes wrong on a top rope. That mentality is what helped contribute to getting injured. I failed to recognize that its still a dangerous sport no matter how secure I felt. Everyone was just caught up in having a good time and led us to having a lapse in judgment.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2012, 7:28 PM
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patto wrote: jt512 wrote: All that accomplishes is choppy lowering, motion sickness, and unnecessary force on the anchor. You should be able to maintain complete control of the rope and the speed of lowering while letting the rope slide through your hands (with both hands on the brake side of the rope at all times—no exceptions). Jay Oh dear. If you are that worried about unnecessary forces then you should rapping or self lowering!
I'm "worried" just enough to want to be lowered as smoothly as possible.
In reply to: In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction.
Actually, compared with letting the rope run through your hands, hand-over-hand lowering relies more on palm-to-rope friction, because you have to actually grip the rope. Letting the rope slide through your hands relies primarily on the braking force of the device. You can lower in full control with almost no grip at all by keeping the rope tightly bent over the edge of the belay device.
Jay
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bassfreak
Jul 10, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Oh they were also supposed to be using the slide technique which I had suggested. Why he didn't have both hands on the rope I don't know yet.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2012, 7:55 PM
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bassfreak wrote: The rope wasn't much smaller just smaller then what the belayer had previously used it was a 9.4, belayer had only one hand below the atc with no glove on, it was on a standard atc.
One reason you got dropped is that your rope was way too thin for a standard ATC. You'd likely have been dropped if you fell as well.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 10, 2012, 8:30 PM)
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jae8908
Jul 11, 2012, 12:37 AM
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jomagam wrote: patto wrote: Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction. Really ? What stops the rope from slipping through your hands if not palm to rope friction ?
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jomagam
Jul 11, 2012, 1:06 AM
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jae8908 wrote: jomagam wrote: patto wrote: Hand over hand (or hand to hand) is a very valid way of control over the rope. In fact it is superior as it does not rely on palm to rope friction. Really ? What stops the rope from slipping through your hands if not palm to rope friction ? gri gri
gri gri != atc
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