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04axeman
Aug 17, 2012, 5:23 PM
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Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend?
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snoopy138
Aug 17, 2012, 5:47 PM
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04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend?
you get your friend to go up the route first and hang the draws.
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Kartessa
Aug 17, 2012, 6:54 PM
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04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend?
Don't bother... all the cool kids toprope
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surfstar
Aug 17, 2012, 10:06 PM
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Draw Monkey (TM)
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marc801
Aug 18, 2012, 1:31 AM
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04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend?
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dagibbs
Aug 18, 2012, 2:32 AM
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Kartessa wrote: 04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend? Don't bother... all the cool kids toprope
What she said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsAiOYXC-k0
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granite_grrl
Aug 20, 2012, 4:08 PM
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snoopy138 wrote: 04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend? you get your friend to go up the route first and hang the draws.
This.
A smart climber hangs out with someone who warms up on their project.
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jdensign5
Aug 20, 2012, 5:14 PM
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Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me.
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jt512
Aug 20, 2012, 5:39 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me.
Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free.
Jay
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Kartessa
Aug 20, 2012, 5:54 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: snoopy138 wrote: 04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend? you get your friend to go up the route first and hang the draws. This. A smart climber hangs out with someone who warms up on their project.
What if you don't have any friends?
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Kartessa
Aug 20, 2012, 5:55 PM
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jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me. Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free. Jay
someone just got served!
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granite_grrl
Aug 20, 2012, 6:10 PM
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Kartessa wrote: granite_grrl wrote: snoopy138 wrote: 04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend? you get your friend to go up the route first and hang the draws. This. A smart climber hangs out with someone who warms up on their project. What if you don't have any friends?
Well, you know what they say....
#12
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Kartessa
Aug 20, 2012, 6:15 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Kartessa wrote: granite_grrl wrote: snoopy138 wrote: 04axeman wrote: Outdoor climbing, do you rappell from top rope and set quickdraws to clip into, or clip to the bolt then to rope while holding as you ascend? you get your friend to go up the route first and hang the draws. This. A smart climber hangs out with someone who warms up on their project. What if you don't have any friends? Well, you know what they say.... #12
No, I dont know what they say... My friends never told me 
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jdensign5
Aug 20, 2012, 6:48 PM
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jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me. Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free. Jay
There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid. There are different opinions on what a true free climb is, and preplacing gear is regarded mostly as diminished style, i.e., NOT AS GOOD.
As per wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing
As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded similarly by most free climbers across the various cultures. Generally, the following diminish the perception of "good style":
Pre-placing gear (pinkpointing)
(This post was edited by jdensign5 on Aug 20, 2012, 6:58 PM)
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lena_chita
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Aug 20, 2012, 7:01 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me. Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free. Jay Actually, the definition of free climbing is to climb with only your hands and feet and other body parts without the use of artificial aid. There are different degrees and opinionsof what a true free climb is. Part of free climbing to me, includes placing protection as you progress upward, not only weighting the rope, it depends on how strict you are on the subject. There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid. There are different opinions on what a true free climb is, and preplacing gear is regarded mostly as diminished style, i.e., NOT AS GOOD. As per wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded similarly by most free climbers across the various cultures. Generally, the following diminish the perception of "good style": Pre-placing gear (pinkpointing)
This is a sport climbing forum.
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csproul
Aug 20, 2012, 7:20 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me. Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free. Jay Actually, the definition of free climbing is to climb with only your hands and feet and other body parts without the use of artificial aid. There are different degrees and opinionsof what a true free climb is. Part of free climbing to me, includes placing protection as you progress upward, not only weighting the rope, it depends on how strict you are on the subject. There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid. There are different opinions on what a true free climb is, and preplacing gear is regarded mostly as diminished style, i.e., NOT AS GOOD. As per wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded similarly by most free climbers across the various cultures. Generally, the following diminish the perception of "good style": Pre-placing gear (pinkpointing)
All your other examples are clearly not free climbing or are different styles of free climbing.
jdensign5 wrote: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro.
Seriously? Chalk? Give me a break, not worth even addressing. Pre-hanging draws or gear...still free climbing, see below. Same with stickclipping. Resting off-route? Still a free ascent, just maybe not of the intended route.
jdensign5 wrote: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling,
All examples of aid. Sometimes in sport climbing these are accepted methods to eventually achieving a free ascent.
Pinkpointing? With respect to sport climbing, this is pretty much an antiquated term. But even if you feel otherwise, pre-placing gear or draws does not invalidate a free ascent. You still free-climbed the route, just a different style of free climb. Just as a redpoint or a flash or an onsight are also free-climbing.
(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 20, 2012, 7:27 PM)
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shotwell
Aug 20, 2012, 7:23 PM
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lena_chita wrote: jdensign5 wrote: jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me. Since the definition of "free climb" is to climb the route without weighting the rope or the protection, there are no degrees of free climbing. You either weighted the gear or you did not. Therefore, pre-clipping the first bolt or pre-hanging the draws does not affect whether the route will be climbed free. Jay Actually, the definition of free climbing is to climb with only your hands and feet and other body parts without the use of artificial aid. There are different degrees and opinionsof what a true free climb is. Part of free climbing to me, includes placing protection as you progress upward, not only weighting the rope, it depends on how strict you are on the subject. There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid. There are different opinions on what a true free climb is, and preplacing gear is regarded mostly as diminished style, i.e., NOT AS GOOD. As per wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded similarly by most free climbers across the various cultures. Generally, the following diminish the perception of "good style": Pre-placing gear (pinkpointing) This is a sport climbing forum.
I wish I could give this post a million stars.
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jdensign5
Aug 20, 2012, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Sometimes in sport climbing these are accepted methods to eventually achieving a free ascent
In reply to: Pinkpointing? With respect to sport climbing, this is pretty much an antiquated term. But even if you feel otherwise, pre-placing gear or draws does not invalidate a free ascent. You still free-climbed the route, just a different style of free climb. Just as a redpoint or a flash or an onsight are also free-climbing.
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csproul
Aug 20, 2012, 8:11 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: In reply to: Sometimes in sport climbing these are accepted methods to eventually achieving a free ascent Yes, I never said using those methods don't make it a free ascent. I said there are different degress and levels at which one regards a true free ascent.
No, I said these methods defined aid climbing as opposed to free climbing (grabbing draws, standing on a bolt, standing on a sling, hanging on gear). You had some bullshit about how these were different "degress and levels" of free climbing. They are not. They are pretty much the definition of aid climbing...i.e NOT free climbing.
jdensign5 wrote: In reply to: Pinkpointing? With respect to sport climbing, this is pretty much an antiquated term. But even if you feel otherwise, pre-placing gear or draws does not invalidate a free ascent. You still free-climbed the route, just a different style of free climb. Just as a redpoint or a flash or an onsight are also free-climbing. Yes, I never said that preplacing gear means that it wasn't a free climb, now did I? I don't think I am the one here who is confused.
jdensign5 wrote: Depends on how free of a climb you want to climb. It is around the same as pre clipping the first bolt before you start. If you have access to the top and can rappel down and pre place, and the climb is really at your limit, then go ahead and pre place them. For a more "true free climb" place as you climb up. I like to place as I go unless the climb is too hard for me.
And it is complete bullshit, especially wrt sport climbing. Prehanging draws does nothing to make a free climb less of a "true free climb". You either climbed it free, or you did not. How you protected it does not define whether or not it was free climbed..
(This post was edited by csproul on Aug 20, 2012, 8:16 PM)
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Kartessa
Aug 20, 2012, 8:12 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: In reply to: Sometimes in sport climbing these are accepted methods to eventually achieving a free ascent Yes, I never said using those methods don't make it a free ascent. I said there are different degress and levels at which one regards a true free ascent. In reply to: Pinkpointing? With respect to sport climbing, this is pretty much an antiquated term. But even if you feel otherwise, pre-placing gear or draws does not invalidate a free ascent. You still free-climbed the route, just a different style of free climb. Just as a redpoint or a flash or an onsight are also free-climbing. Yes, I never said that preplacing gear means that it wasn't a free climb, now did I? I don't think I am the one here who is confused.
Heh... typical
But No... you are the one that's confused.
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jdensign5
Aug 20, 2012, 8:51 PM
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It is fine if you all feel that the only thing that matters in free climbing is whether you weight the rope or not. There are people that care about style, though and more than just whether the rope or protection was weighted or held onto. That doesn't mean it wasn't a free ascent.
Mr. Erickson, care to help me out? I don't think I am getting my point across.
(This post was edited by jdensign5 on Aug 20, 2012, 9:20 PM)
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Kartessa
Aug 20, 2012, 10:45 PM
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jdensign5 wrote: It is fine if you all feel that the only thing that matters in free climbing is whether you weight the rope or not. There are people that care about style, though and more than just whether the rope or protection was weighted or held onto. That doesn't mean it wasn't a free ascent. Mr. Erickson, care to help me out? I don't think I am getting my point across.
I'm sure you're a style queen.
It's pretty black and white. Either you do it all under your own power without the Aid or assistance of gear or you don't. The gear (nuts, cams, bolts) is to protect you, not to help you.
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shotwell
Aug 21, 2012, 12:49 AM
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jdensign5 wrote: It is fine if you all feel that the only thing that matters in free climbing is whether you weight the rope or not. There are people that care about style, though and more than just whether the rope or protection was weighted or held onto. That doesn't mean it wasn't a free ascent. Mr. Erickson, care to help me out? I don't think I am getting my point across.
There are very few stylistic transgressions possible in sport climbing, with most linked to onsighting and flashing. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of sport climbing, though it isn't common for people to fail to realize that hanging draws just doesn't fucking matter.
For top level sport climbers it is the exception and not the rule to hang draws on a redpoint burn. I can't express how uncommon it is for real sport climbers to care about hanging draws whatsoever.
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jt512
Aug 21, 2012, 2:36 AM
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jdensign5 wrote: Actually, the definition of free climbing is to climb with only your hands and feet and other body parts without the use of artificial aid.
That is correct.
In reply to: There are different degrees and opinions of what a true free climb is.
No there are not different degrees of what a "true" free climb is. If there were, then the definition you gave above would be wrong—but the definition you gave above is correct. Therefore, there are no "degrees" of free climbing. You have either weighted the protection, or you have not. And while there may be opinions, the overwhelming consensus of what a "true" free climb is, is essentially given by the definition you wrote above. That is, that definition is the one accepted by the overwhelming majority of experienced climbers.
In reply to: Part of free climbing to me, includes placing protection as you progress upward, not only weighting the rope, it depends on how strict you are on the subject.
It only depends to you because you've made up your own definition of free climbing, one which entails how the protection gets put up.
In reply to: There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid.
OK, so there are at least two people with mistaken ideas about what a free climb is: you and the author of that article.
In reply to: There are different opinions on what a true free climb is and preplacing gear is regarded mostly as diminished style, i.e., NOT AS GOOD.
No, the definition of free climbing is unambiguous: climbing without weighting the gear. Yes, there are differences in the style used to accomplish a free climb, and most climbers think that those differences in style translate to gradations in the quality of how the free climb was done (more so in the trad climbing than the sport climbing context).
In reply to: As per wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_climbing As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded similarly by most free climbers across the various cultures. Generally, the following diminish the perception of "good style": Pre-placing gear (pinkpointing)
That is uncontroversial (as applied to trad, anyway). But that has not been what you've been arguing. A route climbed freely (that is, without aid) in the worst possible style is still a "true" free ascent. Most climbers would probably agree that that some free ascents have been done in better style than others, but hardly any climber would claim that the quality of the ascent affects the "freeness" of the ascent, which is precisely what you are arguing.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 21, 2012, 3:21 AM)
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marc801
Aug 21, 2012, 7:30 PM
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jt512 wrote: jdensign5 wrote: There are certain free climbing transgressions, for example. The current climbing magazine issue, page 33. Taint o meter. One end of the meter is a total free climb, the middle is questionable free climb, the end is not free at all. In between free and questionably free, includes: chalk, climb off route to rest, pre hang quick draws, stick clip bolts, pre place pro. In between questionably free and not free at all includes: take, grab bolt or draw, stand on bolt, stand on sling, aid. OK, so there are at least two people with mistaken ideas about what a free climb is: you and the author of that article.
Just like the nonsense of being able to on-sight a climb on your 4th attempt or numerous other examples from this site.
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