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Matthew0718
Sep 6, 2012, 4:31 PM
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What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?
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chadnsc
Sep 6, 2012, 4:40 PM
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It all depends on the crag and the route.
Top Rope, Top Belay
-no safe access to base
-route over 30 meters in length
Top Rope, Bottom Belay
-safe access to base
-safe access to top
-route is under 30 meters in length
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Matthew0718
Sep 6, 2012, 4:51 PM
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If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?
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donald949
Sep 6, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Matthew0718 wrote: If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?
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csiebsen
Sep 6, 2012, 4:56 PM
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Matthew0718 wrote: If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in?
Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them.
P.S. Never attempt this without proper training.
(This post was edited by csiebsen on Sep 6, 2012, 5:03 PM)
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jomagam
Sep 6, 2012, 5:06 PM
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Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be.
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Matthew0718
Sep 6, 2012, 5:11 PM
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I have no plans to attempt this, I prefer lead. Just asking for curious sake
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rocknice2
Sep 6, 2012, 5:24 PM
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Matthew0718 wrote: What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?
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chadnsc
Sep 6, 2012, 5:47 PM
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Matthew0718 wrote: I have no plans to attempt this, I prefer lead. Just asking for curious sake
Must be all single pitch sport then.
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jt512
Sep 6, 2012, 6:07 PM
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jomagam wrote: Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be.
Soft catch? It's toproping.
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jomagam
Sep 6, 2012, 6:27 PM
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jt512 wrote: jomagam wrote: Also consider that it's going to be less soft catch if you belay from the top. The closer to the anchors you are the worse it'll be. Soft catch? It's toproping.
I've never taken a fall close to the anchors when belayed from the top, but I did fall a few times in the gym close to the top while self-belaying and it was more violent than I expected. I know that on one hand gym ropes are semi-static, but on the other hand there's twice as much rope out compared to the top-belay situation.
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Matthew0718
Sep 6, 2012, 6:49 PM
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Ya its all single pitch, I live in missouri, routes that are longer than a 60 m rope are non-existant. Also most climbing areas are now illegal or poorly developed
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cracklover
Sep 6, 2012, 7:11 PM
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donald949 wrote: Matthew0718 wrote: If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in? Yes, absolutely
Yes, but... That "anchor" need not consist of nuts, cams, bolts, etc.
The stance method of anchoring is not used much, but while the circumstances may not happen often, there are times when it's best.
GO
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areyoumydude
Sep 6, 2012, 7:26 PM
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On top, on bottom, from behind. It's all good.
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wonderwoman
Sep 6, 2012, 8:52 PM
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jomagam wrote: I've never taken a fall close to the anchors when belayed from the top, but I did fall a few times in the gym close to the top while self-belaying and it was more violent than I expected.
Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner.
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jomagam
Sep 6, 2012, 9:06 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner.
Self-belay on usual semi-static gym rope with gri-gri. Why is it so different from Belaying from the top with a gri-gri ?
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jt512
Sep 6, 2012, 9:31 PM
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jomagam wrote: wonderwoman wrote: Do you mean that you fell on one of those auto belay devices? Or were you self-belaying on a fixed rope with a gri-gri? Either one is not very similar to an outside setup with a partner. Self-belay on usual semi-static gym rope with gri-gri. Why is it so different from Belaying from the top with a gri-gri ?
Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.
There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically).
Jay
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jomagam
Sep 6, 2012, 9:55 PM
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jt512 wrote: Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times.
Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.
jt512 wrote: There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically). Jay
Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.
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cracklover
Sep 6, 2012, 10:37 PM
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jomagam wrote: jt512 wrote: Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times. Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.
No you don't. I can eat a sandwich and keep a few pounds of force on the belay rope at all times just as well from the bottom as from the top. Either way, as soon as the climber moves up, I take in slack. Of course if the climber wants to move down, I may have to drop my sandwich, but I'll make that rat bastard pay for his insolence!
In reply to: jt512 wrote: There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically). Jay Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.
Your guts are apparently not all that knowledgeable in the realm of physics. Don't take it hard, though - my guts are much better about selecting which toppings to select to make a pizza yummy for me than they are at solving physics problems.
Hmm, all this talk about pizza and sandwiches is making me hungry. Think I'll go have a snack.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Sep 6, 2012, 10:38 PM)
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jt512
Sep 6, 2012, 10:43 PM
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jomagam wrote: jt512 wrote: Because when you self-belay, you have to allow slack to accumulate in the rope, since you can't continuously take in rope while you're climbing. An alert belayer, on the other hand, can keep almost no slack in the rope at all times. Sure, point is that you have to be more attentive belaying from top than from bottom.
A little I suppose, as the climber nears the top, but it really shouldn't be an issue. What, if anything, is more of an issue, is when belaying from the bottom on a long route the belayer has to be super aware at the start of the route, since with rope stretch the climber can deck. For the same length route belaying from the top reduces the problem because with less rope out there will less rope stretch.
In reply to: jt512 wrote: There is a big difference between taking a short fall onto a short segment of semi-static rope, and just sagging on to the rope with no slack in it. The latter has a fall factor of zero, and so it really doesn't matter how much rope is in the system or even whether it is a dynamic rope or not. The maximum impact force will be low (twice your weight, theoretically). Jay Why max impact force of twice the weight for 0 fall factor ? My guts say that the max force would be the weight of the climber.
The final tension in the rope will be equal to the climber's weight, but when you fall on a top rope with no slack in the rope, the rope will stretch past its equilibrium point and then recover. At its maximum length its tension is theoretically twice the climber's weight.
Jay
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jomagam
Sep 6, 2012, 11:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: The final tension in the rope will be equal to the climber's weight, but when you fall on a top rope with no slack in the rope, the rope will stretch past its equilibrium point and then recover. At its maximum length its tension is theoretically twice the climber's weight. Jay
Duh
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bearbreeder
Sep 7, 2012, 12:40 AM
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The other very good reason for learning how to top belay properly as a beginner is to practice for multi
It will get you used to anchoring in and rope management
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Marylandclimber
Sep 7, 2012, 1:21 AM
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csiebsen wrote: Matthew0718 wrote: If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in? Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them. P.S. Never attempt this without proper training.
What? If he has an auto block or is belaying with a munter hitch then the anchor is taking the climber's weight.
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acorneau
Sep 7, 2012, 2:05 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote: csiebsen wrote: Matthew0718 wrote: If belaying from the top wouldn't the belayer need to be anchored in? Most definitely. Without it he will get launched over the edge on the first fall. Wouldn't end well for either of them. P.S. Never attempt this without proper training. What? If he has an auto block or is belaying with a munter hitch then the anchor is taking the climber's weight.
... or if he is belaying off his harness and using a re-direct.
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ecade
Sep 7, 2012, 1:57 PM
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Matthew0718 wrote: What do you prefer, to build an anchor and belay from the bottom or belay from the top of the route?
Like almost all facets of this most awesome sport, it's quite dependant on the situation
Slingshot top rope method, like you'd find in your gym is your safest bet if you don't have knowledge and experience in top belay methods. and if the terrain is suitable for it.
Top belay isn't too difficult but you have to understand the gear you are using and its limitations.
If we are talking single pitch, sport or TR and most trad lines i currently work, Sling shot.
Single Pitch Trad line with walk off or rap station on a route that meanders such that there would be a lot of rope drag for a sling shot belay, top belay. But remember to protect your second (important in sling shot but more so I think in top belay)
Multi pitch always top belay..Duh :)
If top belaying, you should learn and by learn I mean understand the concept and know its application the means to top belay. I.e. how to put an ATC into guide mode, how to load a grigri (yes easy but the easy things can kill you as quickly as the tough ones and so deserve respect) and most importantly how to lower. It is very dangerous to just open the Cam on the gri from a top belay, you need to learn the redirect (again not challenging in hte slightest), its nearly impossible to lower someone on an ATC in Guide mode (which it must be in for a safe top belay, unless on indirect belay which is not always ideal, ah this sport so awesomely complete and yet simple kind of like bob marley) without using sling and cord redirected and weighted... Knowing how to construct a simple 3-1 pulley with a prussik or get fancy with a 5-1 helps too. Or let the second do the work with an assisted hoist is helpful too, when/ if you second can't finish the route or a section of it.
And again, remember protecting your second protects your anchor, protects you. its a system so remember that when leading, I'm still learning it too I think that part of climbing is very much a journey not a destination.
The point of this convoluted reply is to ideally confuse you for what I think is a noble purpose. To explain in a kind way that there is a lot to know and the more you know, the more you know you don't know :), To say that IMHO learn and practice before you get yourself or second, in hot water, its a valuable skill to learn, one that will begin to open the horizons of your climbing. You don't need to be a rocket scientist (i'm most certainly not and having learnt and practiced I feel proficient in this skill such that I recently completed my first alpine trad rock climb)
The only other thing i'd say is learn self rescue before attempting multi pitches and make sure your climbing partner is well versed in them too. Aside from a valuable skill it helped me better understand gear, its limitations and the technical rope side of climbing one that is surely incredibly important if you wish to be an old climber at least
Happy and Safe Climbing
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