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stoneguy
Oct 16, 2012, 9:57 PM
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When you guys are setting up ground anchors for lead solo, what & how do you tie.?
On a tree, I would normally double sling/carabiner to a double eight on my rope, but lately was thinking a double wrap with a bowline off my rope. The angle is rarely so high that it would slip upwards.
On rocks, it's usually two-240cm slings as they are often 400-500 lb size rocks and it all works, but again somehow I think knots might be safer, snugger. Any thoughts appreciated.
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moose_droppings
Oct 16, 2012, 11:40 PM
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stoneguy wrote: When you guys are setting up ground anchors for lead solo, what & how do you tie.? On a tree, I would normally double sling/carabiner to a double eight on my rope, but lately was thinking a double wrap with a bowline off my rope. The angle is rarely so high that it would slip upwards. On rocks, it's usually two-240cm slings as they are often 400-500 lb size rocks and it all works, but again somehow I think knots might be safer, snugger. Any thoughts appreciated.
I usually make two or three wraps tied off around a tree with 1 inch webbing, then clip two biners to a couple of the wraps, make a 8 on a bight on the rope and clip that to the biners.
If no no trees are close enough, I'll find a crack near the bottom of the climb and try to get 3 good pieces of pro for an upward pull tied together with the rope or cordelette, kept in place with an opposing piece, then clip the 8 on a bight to them.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Oct 16, 2012, 11:42 PM)
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stoneguy
Oct 17, 2012, 1:19 AM
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I would be in agreement, but dammned if I can get three on the wall & seldom an anchor with upward pull. Lots of rocks tho'.
So do you think rope with knots is better around the rock than the slings/webbing. Wouldn't it snug better, and easier to tie a clove hitch to rope than webbing.?
I'd like to speed up this process, make it more consistent, more bombproof. ? Thanks.
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moose_droppings
Oct 17, 2012, 3:05 AM
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stoneguy wrote: I would be in agreement, but dammned if I can get three on the wall & seldom an anchor with upward pull. Lots of rocks tho'. So do you think rope with knots is better around the rock than the slings/webbing. Wouldn't it snug better, and easier to tie a clove hitch to rope than webbing.? I'd like to speed up this process, make it more consistent, more bombproof. ? Thanks.
The only consistency in anchors is variety.
I'd rather use webbing around rocks, ropes stretching tend to rub and frays or cuts ropes.
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cracklover
Oct 17, 2012, 2:47 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: stoneguy wrote: I would be in agreement, but dammned if I can get three on the wall & seldom an anchor with upward pull. Lots of rocks tho'. So do you think rope with knots is better around the rock than the slings/webbing. Wouldn't it snug better, and easier to tie a clove hitch to rope than webbing.? I'd like to speed up this process, make it more consistent, more bombproof. ? Thanks. The only consistency in anchors is variety. I'd rather use webbing around rocks, ropes stretching tend to rub and frays or cuts ropes.
This ^^^
I would only use my lead rope in a dire emergency.
GO
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stoneguy
Oct 17, 2012, 7:18 PM
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OK, now I get it. Guess I should get more comfortable with webbing. Thanks.
At the risk of being annoying, what knot would you use. Then make them snug with a clove hitch.?
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cracklover
Oct 17, 2012, 7:49 PM
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stoneguy wrote: OK, now I get it. Guess I should get more comfortable with webbing. Thanks. At the risk of being annoying, what knot would you use. Then make them snug with a clove hitch.?
If you have static rope that you can dedicate to building anchors, that'd be as good or better than webbing. More expensive, though.
As for what knots to use - the ones that work. Do you have specific questions about knots?
GO
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stoneguy
Oct 17, 2012, 10:46 PM
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I have primarily used nylon slings, altho a few times tied a bowline to a tree on my main rope.(will stop doing that).
I was only investigating the rope issue on rocks, as I think it would grab better, and I have lots of shorter length ropes that could be used. Knots on rope are easier to untie. If so which knot would you use around a large rock.?
Bowline would be loose, which is what I am tying to avoid. An Eight seems awkward. Everything seems loose, unless you carabiner them then snug them, for which the only knot that comes to mind that tightens is the clove hitch.
I have used my spare ropes (15ft)to these anchors slings, then clove hitch them to the anchor grouping on the wall, to tension it up. If the angle is good, then it also holds my wall anchor in place directionally, as I often have difficulty finding a nut for upward pull. (or maybe I am just bad on upward pull nuts)
With the small group of knots I use, I am fast, good
and confident (bowline, figure eight, clove, fishermans, including doubles & triples & finishing)
but feel I'm missing some obvious knot for this rock.
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dcfdrescue2
Oct 17, 2012, 11:27 PM
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I would do a round turn or clove hitch bowline. Meaning I would take my running end (rabbit) and either just do a round turn around the tree or a clove hitch before I tied my bowline with it. The clove bowline is NOT going to move up that tree.
The other alternative is to tie what amounts to a wrap 2 pull 1 with rope. wrap the running end around the rock twice, then do a double becket bend. Hold the becket bend against the rock and pull the other strand and attach to that. The more load is on the anchor, the tighter it cinches.
I'm a rescue guy not a climber, so these might not be what you're looking for. If you the explanations suck, send me an email and I'll try and get pictures for you.
rescue-2@comcast.net
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stoneguy
Oct 17, 2012, 11:48 PM
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No clue about all that but the clove bowline sure sounds cool. I'll research it up. I double wrap the tree's but never thought about double wraping the rocks. Always did two single slings.
I'll also research the double Beckett. Thanks. I always test & practice anything new for a while anyway. If you had a link, would be great. (or post pictures)
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dcfdrescue2
Oct 17, 2012, 11:52 PM
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You could probably get away with a regular old becket bend. A doudble just wraps the running end around the bight a second time.
The attached pic is not that clear, but will give you the general ide of what is going on. This was a Wrap 3 Pull2 for some reason.
(This post was edited by dcfdrescue2 on Oct 17, 2012, 11:57 PM)
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w2p1.jpg
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milesenoell
Oct 18, 2012, 1:49 PM
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I guess I've been lucky in having good pro options, but I generally use cracks rather than rocks and trees. Three for upward pull, and then clove them tight to one low piece set for downward pull.
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stoneguy
Oct 18, 2012, 5:45 PM
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Well that's easy isn't it.?
Do you worry about the rope slipping either out of favorable position or sometimes onto a sharp edge when it's slack, or do you cinch to your wall anchors.
Thanks for keeping it simple (my preferred choice)
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cracklover
Oct 18, 2012, 7:25 PM
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stoneguy wrote: Well that's easy isn't it.? Do you worry about the rope slipping either out of favorable position or sometimes onto a sharp edge when it's slack, or do you cinch to your wall anchors. Thanks for keeping it simple (my preferred choice)
Sure, in specific cases, I might worry about that. And adding a downward-pull piece on the wall might help, or better - if the boulder's really sharp, pad it.
GO
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healyje
Oct 19, 2012, 3:06 AM
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stoneguy wrote: On a tree, I would normally double sling/carabiner to a double eight on my rope, but lately was thinking a double wrap with a bowline off my rope.
Your instincts are good here. On a tree, a double wrap on the tree to a bowline is the way to go.
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stoneguy
Oct 19, 2012, 4:13 PM
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I was reading a test study on knots, and the bowilne, while faulty at times without backup, is atomic when backed up. So if I could slowly incorporate it into my repertoire, I'd like to.
Can you clarify your statement & why. That's double wrap with slings, and bowline on the climbing rope.?
Also, why is it so necessary to have a static rope for cords and other tie-in's.? Thanks & glad you chimed in.
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healyje
Oct 19, 2012, 10:39 PM
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stoneguy wrote: I was reading a test study on knots, and the bowilne, while faulty at times without backup, is atomic when backed up. So if I could slowly incorporate it into my repertoire, I'd like to.
Bowlines are the knots I've relied on most over a 38 year career in climbing supplemented by the clove hitch, alpine butterfly, and the very occasional figure eight. By and large knots don't 'fail' - people fail in either tying them, dressing them, backing them up, or in their application.
stoneguy wrote: Can you clarify your statement & why.
The double wrap around the tree by and large keeps the rope stationary and cinches on the tree in a fall. The bowline is simply the most 'natural' way of securing the rope in such a situation.
stoneguy wrote: That's double wrap with slings, and bowline on the climbing rope?
I never use slings on trees when roped soloing, I just directly tie the rope around the tree (way too much hassle when coming down to second the pitch).
stoneguy wrote: Also, why is it so necessary to have a static rope for cords and other tie-in's.? Thanks & glad you chimed in.
There are very few 'necessaries' in roped soloing outside of the essential componentry/rigging for survival. I've never used a static line for anything in my roped soloing over the years. But if you have construct some elaborate anchor wrapping big rocks then it can be a matter of how much dynamic 'give' is going to be involved with all that rope in the case of a fall. I suppose in some such circumstances you may want to use a static cord for anchor construction, but I've personally never run into such a situation, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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