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gratefuljoe


Oct 22, 2012, 5:07 PM
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Re: [kazu] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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 the things i look at is keeping places open for us to climb, the san bernardino national forest does not recognize climbing as a recreational sport and have been working on shutting down places like Holcomb valley, if they know that climbers are chipping rock to make it more climber friendly they will shut it all down, lets all agree to not chip or glue on national forest land, BLM land,or national parks so we can all keep climbing, after all we are setting are own rules so the Government wont make them for us. if you must chip or glue make sure you are doing for safety not to make something climb at a easier grade.


caughtinside


Oct 22, 2012, 5:30 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Nothing needs to be climbed.


redlude97


Oct 22, 2012, 5:58 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?


hugepedro


Oct 22, 2012, 11:55 PM
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Re: [redlude97] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.


hugepedro


Oct 22, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Nothing needs to be climbed.

Exactly, so don't be a dick and bring the rock down to your level.


dynosore


Oct 23, 2012, 6:54 AM
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Re: [kazu] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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I will never understand sport climbing "ethics". It's a mortal sin to chip a small hold, but blasting 4" deep holes and placing hundreds of permanent bolts is cool Unsure


redlude97


Oct 23, 2012, 9:47 AM
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Re: [hugepedro] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.
No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white. Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.


hugepedro


Oct 23, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [redlude97] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.
No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white. Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.

So I point out that your question is stupid, and you proceed to ask even more stupid questions as though nobody as ever considered those things?

Let me make this simple for you. Bringing the rock down to a lower level of ability is for pussies. Doing so is stealing the route from other climbers.

I don't give a rats ass about how respected a developer is, if they bastardize a route like that they don't deserve respect. Helpful? What the fuck does that have to do with anything?


marc801


Oct 23, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Re: [dynosore] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
I will never understand sport climbing "ethics". It's a mortal sin to chip a small hold, but blasting 4" deep holes and placing hundreds of permanent bolts is cool Unsure
And I will never understand those who cannot see the inherent difference between those two actions. You do understand that bolts were used for protection on otherwise unprotectable rock long before sport climbing existed, yes?


johnwesely


Oct 23, 2012, 11:44 AM
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Re: [marc801] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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I don't understand how anyone could care the slightest about someone manufacturing routes at a quarry.


kennoyce


Oct 23, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
I don't understand how anyone could care the slightest about someone manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Try re-reading the thread, we're not talking about manufacturing routes at a quarry.


johnwesely


Oct 23, 2012, 12:01 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I don't understand how anyone could care the slightest about someone manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Try re-reading the thread, we're not talking about manufacturing routes at a quarry.

You are right. When people were referring to "the quarry" upthread, I thought they were saying frustration creek was a quarry.


caughtinside


Oct 23, 2012, 3:46 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Nothing needs to be climbed.

Exactly, so don't be a dick and bring the rock down to your level.

How about I clean the choss off, climb the thing, and you stay off? Seems like everyone gets what they want that way.


hugepedro


Oct 23, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Nothing needs to be climbed.

Exactly, so don't be a dick and bring the rock down to your level.

How about I clean the choss off, climb the thing, and you stay off? Seems like everyone gets what they want that way.

How about just don't chip?


caughtinside


Oct 23, 2012, 8:43 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.

Nothing needs to be climbed.

Exactly, so don't be a dick and bring the rock down to your level.

How about I clean the choss off, climb the thing, and you stay off? Seems like everyone gets what they want that way.

How about just don't chip?


What is your view on knocking off jugs and holds to make the climb better harder?


Partner cracklover


Oct 24, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Re: [redlude97] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.
No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white.

Actually, I don't think he is.

I have a lot less experience bolting in general, and manufacturing developing sport routes in specific, but I've certainly done my share. I've trundled literally tons of rock, and cleaned with both nut tools hammers, and crow bars.

With that said, I think every serious route developer, even me, knows that there is a very obvious line between cleaning, yes, even aggressive cleaning, and chipping. Before you go inventing some borderline cases, let me just say that inventing a grey area does not mean that white is black, which is pretty much what you're saying.

In reply to:
Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.

OK, I'll bite, because I really don't think it's complicated:

- Cleaning stops at removing rock that the climber could reasonably be expected to pull or kick off accidentally.
- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

Hmm... so drilling pockets and gluing pieces of rock on as holds - what a difficult grey area. Not so much!

GO


marc801


Oct 24, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Re: [cracklover] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
OK, I'll bite, because I really don't think it's complicated:

- Cleaning stops at removing rock that the climber could reasonably be expected to pull or kick off accidentally.
- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

Hmm... so drilling pockets and gluing pieces of rock on as holds - what a difficult grey area. Not so much!

GO
Adding to the fray:
what about gluing a loose hold that will likely be pulled off - especially one that makes the route possible?


redlude97


Oct 24, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: [cracklover] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
Chipping is weak and lame. If you CAN'T climb it you don't NEED to climb it. If nobody can climb it, then it doesn't need to be climbed. Simple.
There are routes that require hundreds of lbs of rock to be trundled before being climbable. Is the weak and lame also? What about comfortizing holds?

Do you think trundling and chipping are the same thing? No? Then why ask such a stupid fucking question?

Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.
No, but you seem to be polarizing an issue that isn't black and white.

Actually, I don't think he is.

I have a lot less experience bolting in general, and manufacturing developing sport routes in specific, but I've certainly done my share. I've trundled literally tons of rock, and cleaned with both nut tools hammers, and crow bars.

With that said, I think every serious route developer, even me, knows that there is a very obvious line between cleaning, yes, even aggressive cleaning, and chipping. Before you go inventing some borderline cases, let me just say that inventing a grey area does not mean that white is black, which is pretty much what you're saying.

In reply to:
Not all trundling is acceptable, just like most chipping isn't acceptable. But where do you draw the line for chipping? Is breaking off a piece of loose rock that exposes a new hold chipping? Is aggressive cleaning chipping? I bet you've climbed on comfortized and chipped holds without even knowing it. Leaving razor sharp edges that form in certain rock types is bad form at many areas. I'm certainly not saying what happened on this route is acceptable because I havent seen it first hand, but to make black and white statements such as yours about many well respected developers around the world isnt helpful.

OK, I'll bite, because I really don't think it's complicated:

- Cleaning stops at removing rock that the climber could reasonably be expected to pull or kick off accidentally.
- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

Hmm... so drilling pockets and gluing pieces of rock on as holds - what a difficult grey area. Not so much!

GO
What about reinforcing a hold with glue? How is that really that different than gluing a hold on? It happens quite frequently. According you HugePedro, if you hammer a sharp edge to make it useable with a hammer, you are a pussy. My only point is that many of these developers have vast amounts more experience than I do, and I'll leave it up to their judgement what is acceptable. To label them as pussies is beyond harsh IMO


jt512


Oct 24, 2012, 11:42 AM
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Re: [kennoyce] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I don't understand how anyone could care the slightest about someone manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Try re-reading the thread, we're not talking about manufacturing routes at a quarry.

Frustration Creek is not a quarry. It's another minor Southern California sport crag. It's visited by nobody but a small number of sport climbers. The only "access issue" is the unprotected 5th class approach to the main wall. Like almost all crags in the region the rock quality is mediocre to poor, and substantial cleaning is needed to make climbing even possible. It's just another SoCal choss pile. Chip, drill, glue, comfortize, whatever.

Jay


marc801


Oct 24, 2012, 12:03 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
According you HugePedro, if you hammer a sharp edge to make it useable with a hammer, you are a pussy. My only point is that many of these developers have vast amounts more experience than I do, and I'll leave it up to their judgement what is acceptable. To label them as pussies is beyond harsh IMO
Maybe he's never climbed in a limestone area, where the sharp edges can easily slice to the bone, especially when you're hanging all your weight off of two fingers.


caughtinside


Oct 24, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Re: [cracklover] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:

- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

See? Pedro already thinks you are a chipper if you do that.

There are no absolutes on choss.


ObviousTroll


Oct 24, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] chipping acceptable in this area?? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
cracklover wrote:

- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

See? Pedro already thinks you are a chipper if you do that.

There are no absolutes on choss.

lol you just keep making yourself look pro chipping every post. It's like you ignore peoples logic, just to stand by a principal. But you make it difficult because your principal is ultimately about the same as the rest of us.


Partner cracklover


Oct 24, 2012, 12:45 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
cracklover wrote:

- Comfortizing stops at running your hammer over razor edges and points to make them possible to touch.

See? Pedro already thinks you are a chipper if you do that.

Actually, I don't think he said I was a chipper, but a pussy:

hugepedro wrote:
Comfortizing is for pussies. Climbing isn't supposed to be comfortable.

So he thinks I'm a pussy? Big deal, I can live with that. I already know I'm a pussy 'cause I get scared when I'm runout over small gear, and I think that ice is for drinks.

GO


Partner cracklover


Oct 24, 2012, 1:50 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
What about reinforcing a hold with glue? How is that really that different than gluing a hold on?

You honestly don't see the difference? One is creating something that's not there, the other is preserving something that is.

Wish I could find that picture of the crag with all the bolted on gym holds. Then you could explain how that's just the same as cleaning choss, right? LOL

GO


Partner cracklover


Oct 24, 2012, 1:56 PM
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marc801 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
According you HugePedro, if you hammer a sharp edge to make it useable with a hammer, you are a pussy. My only point is that many of these developers have vast amounts more experience than I do, and I'll leave it up to their judgement what is acceptable. To label them as pussies is beyond harsh IMO
Maybe he's never climbed in a limestone area, where the sharp edges can easily slice to the bone, especially when you're hanging all your weight off of two fingers.

Or, more likely, he's only ever climbed on them after they were dulled a little, and doesn't realize what they were like beforehand.

GO

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