|
philipzahnd
Oct 4, 2012, 3:13 PM
Post #1 of 25
(22763 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 15, 2010
Posts: 5
|
I'm coming to terms with the sad truth of an approaching outdoor climbing "off" season. I've been thinking about doing lots of pull-ups and dips everyday in addition to my existing weight training about five days a week. Good idea for a climber to always be doing that, or do I need more muscle confusion? I also have been doing a lot of pull exercises for my back. Should I stay away from heavy weight there?
Does anybody religiously do the same mini workout for climbing everyday? I'm thinking in terms of pull-ups, rubber ring forearm trainers, and body weight only exercises (although I have easy access to weights). Also, I don't have my hangboard here at college, so that's kind of not an option, although I have a nearby bouldering gym.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Oct 4, 2012, 4:13 PM
Post #2 of 25
(22743 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
philipzahnd wrote: I'm coming to terms with the sad truth of an approaching outdoor climbing "off" season. I've been thinking about doing lots of pull-ups and dips everyday in addition to my existing weight training about five days a week.... Does anybody religiously do the same mini workout for climbing everyday?
No. It depends on what level you are climbing, but if you can already do 8-10 pullups, your climbing will not improve by doing more.
What level are you climbing? That, more than anything, would determine what the best off-season training would be. If you are at 5.12 or higher, consider periodization and hangboarding. Search rockprodigy workout on this site.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 4, 2012, 5:35 PM
Post #3 of 25
(22706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
philipzahnd wrote: I'm coming to terms with the sad truth of an approaching outdoor climbing "off" season. I've been thinking about doing lots of pull-ups and dips everyday in addition to my existing weight training about five days a week. Good idea for a climber to always be doing that, or do I need more muscle confusion? I also have been doing a lot of pull exercises for my back. Should I stay away from heavy weight there? Does anybody religiously do the same mini workout for climbing everyday? I'm thinking in terms of pull-ups, rubber ring forearm trainers, and body weight only exercises (although I have easy access to weights). Also, I don't have my hangboard here at college, so that's kind of not an option, although I have a nearby bouldering gym.
Skip most of that other stuff, and just go to the bouldering gym.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
madam
Oct 10, 2012, 1:42 PM
Post #4 of 25
(22346 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 95
|
Hey,
just yesterday I came across this:
http://climbstrong.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/pull-ups-are-a-waste-of-time/
may be you find it helpful.
adam
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Oct 10, 2012, 2:59 PM
Post #5 of 25
(22331 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
in addition to pull ups/dips and weight lifting, I intend to do this during the off season:
Rice Bucket Grab
This exercise is a traditional hand-strengthening exercise common in Eastern martial arts. Fill a bucket with rice and place it on the floor or a low stool. Keep your fingers straight, and plunge your hand into the bucket as deeply as possible. Keeping your hand in the bucket, close and open your fist against the resistance offered by the contents. Continue until your efforts begin to weaken, and then change hands.
I think it will put less pressure on my arthritic fingers than a hangboard workout. Will report back in the spring.
|
|
|
|
|
FullertonImages
Oct 21, 2012, 4:26 PM
Post #6 of 25
(22080 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 30, 2009
Posts: 40
|
Gblauer - That sounds like a great exercise. I too have finger issue, and every time I go near a hang board, I regret it. But I also want to get stronger, and while I mostly just try to climb, this sounds like a great training exercise that is potentially much more friendly on the fingers. And it sounds more interesting and you get to feel like a ninja.
|
|
|
|
|
jomagam
Nov 2, 2012, 2:33 PM
Post #9 of 25
(21555 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 364
|
Certainly true, but this is a sample size of one, so I'm not sure how you think it applies here. On one hand neither he nor I advocate doing the same training regiment as it's probably highly injury prone if you do it wrong. On the other hand this is a two time bouldering world champion, so I thought it'd be worth a mention.
|
|
|
|
|
pfwein
Nov 2, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #10 of 25
(21525 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 8, 2009
Posts: 353
|
Slate had a slightly interesting piece on "Correlation Does Not Imply Causation"
http://www.slate.com/...ts_class_clich_.html
I find the "pullups don't help climbing" view convincing, but it was interesting to read that a bouldering champ apparently uses pullups as his primary training.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Nov 2, 2012, 9:44 PM
Post #11 of 25
(21469 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
gblauer wrote: in addition to pull ups/dips and weight lifting, I intend to do this during the off season: Rice Bucket Grab This exercise is a traditional hand-strengthening exercise common in Eastern martial arts. Fill a bucket with rice and place it on the floor or a low stool. Keep your fingers straight, and plunge your hand into the bucket as deeply as possible. Keeping your hand in the bucket, close and open your fist against the resistance offered by the contents. Continue until your efforts begin to weaken, and then change hands. I think it will put less pressure on my arthritic fingers than a hangboard workout. Will report back in the spring.
The rice bucket is an amazing prehab/rehab tool for finger aches and pains.
|
|
|
|
|
onceahardman
Nov 3, 2012, 6:45 PM
Post #12 of 25
(21380 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2493
|
I've always found it interesting that many people who climb at or near the current world standard of 5.15c train with some pullups, while many who climb 2-3 number grades below the world standard say its a waste of time.
Of course, this is not to say that pullups will make you a better climber, but sometimes more strength is necessary for hard climbing. Also, maintaining joint and muscle health through strength training can decrease risk of injury, enabling one to climb more, and thus improve.
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Nov 3, 2012, 8:00 PM
Post #13 of 25
(21367 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1804
|
I totally agree with hardman. We seem to get caught up in false dichotomies between excessive high-rep pullups and climbing-only training, whereas it is reasonable to assume that doing both makes the most sense, especially from a injury-prevention perspective.
I still think that high-rep pullups are pretty useless, and it makes far more sense to train higher pulling strength rather than aiming for ever more repetitions.
It also seems relevant to repeat, for the umpteenth time, that trad climbing potentially requires more in the way of lock-off strength than sport climbing, because you can't dyno in gear at arm's reach, so some kind of appropriate upper-body training makes sense for trad pursuits.
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Nov 4, 2012, 2:23 AM
Post #14 of 25
(21321 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
rgold wrote: I totally agree with hardman. We seem to get caught up in false dichotomies between excessive high-rep pullups and climbing-only training, whereas it is reasonable to assume that doing both makes the most sense, especially from a injury-prevention perspective. I still think that high-rep pullups are pretty useless, and it makes far more sense to train higher pulling strength rather than aiming for ever more repetitions. It also seems relevant to repeat, for the umpteenth time, that trad climbing potentially requires more in the way of lock-off strength than sport climbing, because you can't dyno in gear at arm's reach, so some kind of appropriate upper-body training makes sense for trad pursuits.
Good call on both points RG.
If I remember correctly, AAlex Lowe did loads of pull ups everyday. He was fanatical about it.
I do think 3 sets of pull-ups with some extra weight strapped on is more beneficial than 100 pull pull-ups. Of course, I could be saying this because I have some extra weight around my gut lately.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Nov 4, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #15 of 25
(21291 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
ive never had to do a pull up on a route outside ... i try to find my feet first 
as to trad, are pull ups and lock offs the same thing? ... locking off a finger lock is quite different from pulling yrself up or i should hope so ...
who knows maybe im not climbing hard enough or doing it all wrong 
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Nov 4, 2012, 9:21 AM
Post #16 of 25
(21269 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
Just like you, I focus on feet first, but like it or not, strength of arms also plays a factor when climbing.
Just because you never have to do a pull-up on a route doesn't mean they won't help. I've never had to campus on a route either, but those campusing is a great way to train. (I don't campus personally, to hard on my elbows.)
Doing pull-ups would definitely help with lock-off strengths. I use to have a crack machine that was parallel to the ground. It was great for doing a few hand-jam pull-ups.
Want to know how useful pull-up are, try doing a few of my favorite routes:
Desert Reality at Red Rocks
Hands Across America at T-Wall
Up in Arms at T-wall
Separate Reality in Yosemite (Still have not finished without hanging)
The Morgue- Hueco Tanks
Kachoong Araplies
I'm sure I name a dozen plus routes at Red River Gorge or the Obed too.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Nov 4, 2012, 1:50 PM
Post #17 of 25
(21250 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
i think you misunderstand me ... i can easily do 20+ pull ups in a row depending on the the hand position .. i can also campus some of the easier problems in the gym for fun ...
i do alot of trad, and ive never found it much use for placing gear ... and honestly there are tons of people who cant do the number of pullups i can, can easily climb harder than me easily ...
perhaps at a certain level or for certain styles of climbing it may be more useful ... but who knows., squamish trad is not exactly conducive to campusing your way up a crack ... or perhaps im just no climbing hard enough
but then neither are most RCers i suspect to make this argument very relevant in this context ...
focus on yr feet, and boulder or do hard sport as much as you can ... who knows after that maybe you should campus, do pull ups or take steroids ...
|
|
|
|
|
csproul
Nov 4, 2012, 2:01 PM
Post #18 of 25
(21246 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 4, 2004
Posts: 1769
|
Bear..not saying you're wrong...but how much have you climbed outside of Squish? Not every climbing area is vertical/less than vertical cracks. Come out (maybe you already have) and climb at Obed, or the Red, or the New, or just about any place in NC...ie overhangs. These places will require more upper body pull strength. No one will argue that technique and footwork don't come first, but pull/lock-off strength sure can help. BTW, I doubt I can do anywhere near 20 PU's!
(This post was edited by csproul on Nov 4, 2012, 2:16 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Nov 4, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #19 of 25
(21244 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
ive been mainly to yos, the canadian rockies, skaha ... some of those places have pretty decent overhangs, even places in squish ...
im not saying that there may be no value to one, ive just never found it useful especially for trad ... and i will say that there are tons of people who cant do many pullups who can climb way harder steep and overhanging routes than i can ...
the very best part is when some young girl or old man in the gym who cant do more than a pull up or two can easily walk up a very steep route i flail on ... its also the most humbling to remind you that youre doing something really wrong if youre trying to haul yourself up ...
im sure you can climb harder than me ... pull ups or not
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 4, 2012, 2:14 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Nov 6, 2012, 2:25 AM
Post #20 of 25
(21138 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 3389
|
First and foremost, not all trad climbing is crack climbing.
Second, experience and audience on this site, I know a few users have been climbing over 30 years here. Don't assume everyone here is inexperienced.
I agree, technique is extremely important in climbing. Having strength and no technique will not get you up routes any more then having technique and not being strong enough to hold on. Trad cracks are a good example, techniques extremely important, strength and endurance also important.
Lock off strength is just as important in crack climbing as in face climbing. I've also done plenty of trad climbs that were vertical or overhanging face climbs protected by gear. Place like Sunset in TN and WHiteside in North Carolina, I found being able to lock off very useful when placing gear. Sometimes high is the only place the gear will go.
Roof cracks, even small one require the ability to hold on, even from jams, being strong enough to hold your weight is important.
I agree, bouldering and sport climbing will help too. Both develop technique, strength, and power.
As a trad climber first and sport climber second, I know for sure that strength plays a crucial role in your climbing ability. No, the strongest climber won't always climb the hardest.
I can't do 20 pull-ups personally. I can do 10 very good and controlled pull-ups. I can do 5 very controlled pull-ups with extra weight.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Nov 6, 2012, 2:37 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Nov 6, 2012, 8:35 AM
Post #21 of 25
(21093 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
i dont disagree that strength can help you ... i just dont know how much that has with doing "lots of pull-ups and dips" for climbing anyways
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 6, 2012, 8:36 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
TScott27
Nov 18, 2012, 10:07 AM
Post #22 of 25
(20659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2012
Posts: 9
|
Just like with any sport, exercise plays a very important role in making sure that you are fit for the task to undertake. While pull-ups and dips may help, an overall exercise workout that targets each and every muscle of the body will be the best. just my $0.02.
|
|
|
|
|
phildenigris
May 31, 2014, 4:02 AM
Post #23 of 25
(15712 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 12, 2014
Posts: 4
|
Quite right on a few counts.
At some point, high rep pullups do become a bit useless. I think that when an individual can do 8 strict pullups, they should begin loading them. 25 pounds is usually a good place to start. When they can do the same with 25 pounds, increase the weight.
Of course, you can also train with lower reps and higher weight. There is no right or wrong way.
As far as lockout strength, pullup grips can be offset, and one can easily add in static holds during reps.
IMO dips are a crummy exercise. Some people can get away with them, but they put your arms and shoulders into a range of motion that can easily lead to injury. There is a way to do them safely, but most people don't do it that way. There are better options available for climbers.
|
|
|
|
|
singletrackmike
May 31, 2014, 11:25 AM
Post #24 of 25
(15287 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 30, 2009
Posts: 41
|
Being able to do a lot of pull-ups won't hurt you, but you can't beat technique and mental attitude. I can do three sets of good 30 pull-ups each on a wood beam in my basement, while a friend who's a guide at Seneca told me she can't do a pull-up. She climbs at least two full grades harder then me.
The thing that's helped me the most in my years of climbing was when I tore tendons in both forearms, could barely do 5 pull-ups, and started climbing "like a girl". Using my legs and getting better technique with the feet.
Still working on the mental attitude part, but I'm not hopeful there.
|
|
|
|
|
isayne14tennis
Jun 2, 2014, 10:04 AM
Post #25 of 25
(15246 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 19, 2005
Posts: 13
|
As with everything else in life, it depends on the technique employed. There are many different variations of pull/chin-ups, but if executed imperfectly, you’d be better off not going to the gym at all. Most people kip when they do their pull-ups, which makes their efforts almost worthless. They will also frequently use really sloppy technique by only going for half reps, or relying too much on momentum. Stay away from the heavy weights, as they will only lead to large show muscles that are perfect for strutting around with on the beach a summer’s day, but completely useless for anything else. Be careful with dips, because if you are not using strict form, it is very easy to develop shoulder injuries. I usually do my dips whilst doing muscle-ups on a straight bar, and avoid dips on parallel bars.
Doing the same routine is equivalent to not wanting to see any gains for your efforts. Like I said, there are many variations on the basic pull-up- some of which are extremely challenging-so not only is there no need to stick to the same pattern, it is also counterproductive.
Archer pull-ups, L-sit pull-ups, one-armed pull-ups, typewriters, cliffhangers, ice cream makers, muscle-ups, wide grip, narrow grip, neutral grip, one should master them all.
As well, I don’t think that sticking only to a climbing gym is optimal for one’s development, and that there should be a marriage between bouldering and callisthenics to maximize one’s performance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
