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UpToTheOzone
May 26, 2013, 5:18 PM
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I've got the double butterfly coil down pretty well but I've realized the benefits of having the rope single coiled so that it doesn't need to be re-flaked. Does anyone have a video to reference or photo's of how to create a (semi) comfortable single coil butterfly backpack? I met an Aussie at Devils Tower who made a perfect backpack without even thinking about it when we were rapping with another party.
As far as multi-pitch rope management, I need to get better at controlling my loop sizes when in a hanging belay. When swinging leads I can usually make progressively shorter loops over my tether or feet, but I have to start out with friggin 20 foot loops! When leading in blocks and using the "flip" technique to my partners tether, I more often than not end up with a tangle. It's to the point where I'll usually reflake the rope over their tether instead of flipping.
I shared a couple belays with a guy on Snake Dike that was leading the entire route who had this dialed. Any advice out there on getting better at choosing the size of my loops? I know nothing is a substitute for experience, but maybe there's an easy technique that I'm overlooking
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moose_droppings
May 26, 2013, 9:33 PM
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UpToTheOzone wrote: I've got the double butterfly coil down pretty well but I've realized the benefits of having the rope single coiled so that it doesn't need to be re-flaked. Does anyone have a video to reference or photo's of how to create a (semi) comfortable single coil butterfly backpack? I met an Aussie at Devils Tower who made a perfect backpack without even thinking about it when we were rapping with another party. As far as multi-pitch rope management, I need to get better at controlling my loop sizes when in a hanging belay. When swinging leads I can usually make progressively shorter loops over my tether or feet, but I have to start out with friggin 20 foot loops! When leading in blocks and using the "flip" technique to my partners tether, I more often than not end up with a tangle. It's to the point where I'll usually reflake the rope over their tether instead of flipping. I shared a couple belays with a guy on Snake Dike that was leading the entire route who had this dialed. Any advice out there on getting better at choosing the size of my loops? I know nothing is a substitute for experience, but maybe there's an easy technique that I'm overlooking
By "20 foot loops" do you mean 40 foot of rope as in 20 down and 20 back up on one side and the same on the other side? If that's what you mean then your loops are to long. I start out with around 10' loops and shorten each loop slightly as I get more rope in. If leading in blocks, start out with about one foot loops and gradually get the loops longer for flipping over to your second.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on May 26, 2013, 9:57 PM)
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MFC
May 26, 2013, 10:02 PM
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I just spent a few minutes trying this and the usual back packer coil works when you single strand butterfly the rope just like when you double strand butterfly the rope.
On one end of the rope, set aside your usual length of rope used to tie the backpacker coil (for me that is about 2 full arm spans). Single butterfly coil the rope and when you get to the other end of the rope and have approx. the same length of rope tail as the front end, place them on the same side of the butterfly coil and tie off the back packer setup as usual.
When untying this set up, just identify the "top" and "bottom" ends and it should be ready to climb without re-flaking.
(This post was edited by MFC on May 26, 2013, 10:05 PM)
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shimanilami
May 27, 2013, 3:08 PM
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I've never understood why some people coil the rope from the middle or from both ends at once. It's a guaranteed CF and provides no advantage whatsoever. As described above ^^^, it's straightforward to simply coil from one end and then create the backpack from there.
As far as hanging loops goes, it comes with experience. If it's overhanging, then I go with really long loops right from the start. But if there's something that might cause tangles (e.g. ledges, flakes, wind), then I shorten things up.
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UpToTheOzone
May 27, 2013, 4:39 PM
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I like it. Thanks for the input guys. As far as rope management at a belay, how much different are you trying to make your loops? Are they a foot shorter each time, an inch shorter each time? I've had a partner somehow get one of her loops stuck in the crack because her loops were too long and her management was poor.
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rgold
May 27, 2013, 4:50 PM
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shimanilami wrote: I've never understood why some people coil the rope from the middle or from both ends at once. It's a guaranteed CF and provides no advantage whatsoever.
I usually coil my rope(s) double, starting from the ends. The reason is simple: it takes half the time. (But it makes no sense to start from the middle; searching for the middle eliminates the time advantage and there isn't any other advantage.)
In my experience, you risk tangles if the rope feeds out of either a single or doubled butterfly coil that you just drop on the ground, so I always reflake anyway. I've seen no evidence, while reflaking, that a double-butterfly coil tangles any worse than a single one. Most of the time---but not always---both unwind fine for me, nothing remotely like the "guaranteed CF" suggested. The reflaking is because of the "but not always" proviso.
As for flaking the ropes over the tie-in in ever-decreasing loops, I rarely manage to get this right either, and I don't have much luck with flipping the rope when leading in blocks.
Tangles happen because loops which are pulled off the stack can capture other loops---this is the reason for trying to arrange loop sizes progressively, making capture impossible. But since I usually mess up the loop sizes while attending to other belaying tasks, I find it better to use loops that are the same size but not too large. The size is determined by the stance, but the belayer has to be able to touch the bottom of every loop. If this is the case, the belayer can lift loops off the stack rather than just pulling them out, keeping well ahead of what the leader needs for slack, and this avoids capturing and so prevents tangling.
The problem with the longer loops used in the progressive stacking is that the belayer can't reach them to prevent capture in case the lengths have been screwed up.
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shimanilami
May 31, 2013, 7:05 PM
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rgold wrote: In my experience, you risk tangles if the rope feeds out of either a single or doubled butterfly coil that you just drop on the ground, so I always reflake anyway. I've seen no evidence, while reflaking, that a double-butterfly coil tangles any worse than a single one.
In my observation (since I only see others do it), one must reflake from a "double coil" because it always tangles otherwise. Perhaps you a a better "double coiler" than most.
I never reflake my rope from a "single coil" because it never tangles. Perhaps I am a better "single coiler" than most.
I suppose it's a matter of personal preference: spend your time flaking or coiling. I'm for the latter.
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rgold
Jun 1, 2013, 5:46 PM
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I don't believe in "always" and "never" but I'm not going to argue about it. Whatever floats yer boat.
Something that helps to prevent tangling off a coil, whatever coiling method you used, is to place the coil directly under the belayer's hand, so that as much as possible the coils lift straight up from the pile. If the coil is on the ground but not under the belayer's hand, then each individual loop will have to be dragged through the pile, raising the chances that it will capture other loops and create a tangle.
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