|
noobington
Jul 24, 2013, 8:44 PM
Post #1 of 29
(37156 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 10, 2012
Posts: 3
|
For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback:
I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work.
What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation.
(I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).
(This post was edited by noobington on Jul 24, 2013, 8:47 PM)
|
|
Attachments:
|
image.jpg
(121 KB)
|
|
|
|
|
sittingduck
Jul 24, 2013, 8:58 PM
Post #2 of 29
(37135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 338
|
noobington wrote: For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback: I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work. What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation. (I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).
|
|
|
|
|
wwalt822
Jul 24, 2013, 9:06 PM
Post #3 of 29
(37124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2010
Posts: 116
|
noobington wrote: For anyone kind enough to offer some feedback: I've never seen an anchor built this way (in this case it's set up to belay a second from above), but I couldn't put my finger on why it would be wrong/bad/insufficient. I understand that cordalette/sling/etc to build a master point is standard, but I'm curious as to the reasoning for why this method would not work. What specifically about this is incorrect? Any input appreciated, particularly explanation. (I posted this from an iPhone, so my apologies if this ends up formatted strangely).
This probably wont kill you but if you plan on belaying from the anchors you should carry a double length sling or use the rope to make an anchor.
A top rope fall isnt likely to make burs on the carabiners which could damage the rope but its not out of the question.
The main issue is that you could twist the locker while belaying and that could make it unclip from one of the quickdraws. Who knows, maybe you dont catch it and do the same thing with the other draw and now your in trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
noobington
Jul 24, 2013, 9:14 PM
Post #4 of 29
(37121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 10, 2012
Posts: 3
|
Ah, so metal-on-metal is a concern because of the interaction of their surfaces and potential damage?
Hadn't considered that, but it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
|
noobington
Jul 25, 2013, 12:37 AM
Post #6 of 29
(37042 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 10, 2012
Posts: 3
|
Solid and very useful answers. Thanks to everyone, very helpful. :-)
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 25, 2013, 12:47 AM
Post #7 of 29
(37037 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
sittingduck wrote: It will work but you should not clip metal with the carabiners that is dedicated for the rope. The carabiners might get nicked and damage the rope in the future.
no its fine ... its ROUNDED biner on ROUNDED biner and you arent taking lead whippers on em
people do it all the time ... many guides use a masterpoint carabiner which the client clip themslves to ... the DMM Boa was basically built for that purpose
noobington wrote: Solid and very useful answers. Thanks to everyone, very helpful. :-)
and WRONG ...
the biners wont get "damaged" any more than any other configuration ... nor will they "twist" out as shown, any more than a rope will twist out of 2 opposed biners that are acceptable for TR anchors ...
to the OP ... the anchor is absolutely and utterly fine as shown ... everyone does things differently, doesnt mean its "unsafe"
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jul 25, 2013, 1:05 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
Appelkoos
Jul 25, 2013, 1:51 AM
Post #8 of 29
(36993 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2007
Posts: 25
|
Three-way loading on the biner. I wouldn't climb on that anchor, and I'd berate any climbing partner who belayed me on that.
|
|
|
|
|
Rudmin
Jul 25, 2013, 2:28 AM
Post #10 of 29
(36957 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606
|
It's probably fine, but I bet if I fucked around with the ropes for long enough I could unclip both of those biners without touching them.
|
|
|
|
|
Appelkoos
Jul 25, 2013, 3:16 AM
Post #12 of 29
(36924 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2007
Posts: 25
|
3-way loading on the load-bearing screwgate. Pretty easy to see how fiddling around with a belay could rotate the biner into a classic 3-way-load.
Agree that the forces are low. Except, shit happens. Belayer sorts out twisted ropes, slack builds up, second takes a factor 0.5 fall. Or anchor used with a static rope. Or second leads on, takes a factor 1 fall.
Yes, I climb in the real world. There are some objective dangers I'm prepared to take - runouts, unexpected loose rock, storms - and some I'm not. Anchors with potential weaknesses which are easilly fixed falls into the latter category.
Easy to throw in a 60cm 8mm sling with a fig-8 and the problem is solved.
PS - I find it difficult to get my legs and pelvis to apply opposing forces. But I've never meen terribly flexible.
|
|
|
|
|
Rudmin
Jul 25, 2013, 3:22 AM
Post #13 of 29
(36921 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606
|
bearbreeder wrote: Rudmin wrote: It's probably fine, but I bet if I fucked around with the ropes for long enough I could unclip both of those biners without touching them. no more likely unclipping a top rope from 2 opposed biners ... of which i believe someone still has a 40$ reward on this forums for any documented cases http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2565680 whats happened to RC?
The extra locker and belay device makes it a lot easier to apply a torque to this system.
I would weight the rope, and spin around a whole lto and alternate weighting and unweighting the rope. The spinning puts a torque on the locker and the bouncing lets it ride up and down on the two biners, hopefully jumping into the gate and unclipping itself.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jul 25, 2013, 3:57 AM
Post #14 of 29
(36901 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
|
Appelkoos wrote: 3-way loading on the load-bearing screwgate. Pretty easy to see how fiddling around with a belay could rotate the biner into a classic 3-way-load. Agree that the forces are low. Except, shit happens. Belayer sorts out twisted ropes, slack builds up, second takes a factor 0.5 fall. Or anchor used with a static rope. Or second leads on, takes a factor 1 fall. Yes, I climb in the real world. There are some objective dangers I'm prepared to take - runouts, unexpected loose rock, storms - and some I'm not. Anchors with potential weaknesses which are easilly fixed falls into the latter category. Easy to throw in a 60cm 8mm sling with a fig-8 and the problem is solved. PS - I find it difficult to get my legs and pelvis to apply opposing forces. But I've never meen terribly flexible.
irrelevant ... the angle is fine, the forces are minimal, and the top 2 biners are focused on one spot
realistically you could twist and turn all you want and it will hold ... the biner wont break
from craig luebbens Rock Climbing Anchors
same type of load on the biner
a VERY standard top rope anchor setup ... not the "triaxial" load on the biners ...
|
|
|
|
|
Appelkoos
Jul 25, 2013, 4:10 AM
Post #15 of 29
(36892 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 5, 2007
Posts: 25
|
I'd install a sling to avoid tri-axial loading. Bearbreeder doesn't think it's worth the effort.
@noobington - unclipping and tri-axial loading are two potential failure modes. In an emergency your setup should be OK. But I'd personally avoid it where possible.
|
|
|
|
|
sittingduck
Jul 25, 2013, 6:56 AM
Post #17 of 29
(36845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 19, 2003
Posts: 338
|
If you need options; this is a safe way to rig that anchor with the gear at hand:
|
|
|
|
|
ChaseLeoncini
Jul 25, 2013, 3:55 PM
Post #18 of 29
(36720 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 6, 2013
Posts: 33
|
You'd probably be fine with that but the question really is why do it that way? If youre looking for speed (assuming two bolts), take a pre-set 3 foot sling with 2 lockers on it like an alpine draw. Clip into the bolts, twisty, lockie, clove. Done. 9 seconds. If youre out of gear, there is so many fast rope anchor rigs to choose from. You'd be safe with that way you show i suppose but i wouldnt leave it unattended even if it does need a massive earthquake to come undone... point is, why use anything that is more likely to come undone?
|
|
|
|
|
meanandugly
Jul 25, 2013, 4:17 PM
Post #19 of 29
(36705 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 312
|
There is really nothing wrong with it. It is what I would call adequate, but not optimal.
If you belay me up on that I would suggest something better, such as a single longer sling setup that has already been mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jul 25, 2013, 6:11 PM
Post #20 of 29
(36670 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
if you closely study how metal to metal make contact, you will see that one of the biner from the master point may only contact one biner from the anchor and not both . this has to do with how round object make contact with one another.
the overall system is weak but for weekend sport climber who build anchors with even 1 draw, this is over kill and If I had to build such a shitty anchor, I would had used a bear paw to divide load .
|
|
|
|
|
Syd
Jul 26, 2013, 10:08 PM
Post #21 of 29
(36469 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300
|
I would have agreed with bearbreeder but I found this:
|
|
|
|
|
InDaDacks
Jul 27, 2013, 2:40 AM
Post #23 of 29
(36419 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 24, 2010
Posts: 21
|
The proper way to set up a belay from 2 bolts with 2 quickdraws and a reverso is to clip the two quickdraws directly to the reverso. Petzl demonstrates this technique. It is important that the bolts are level horizontally and not too far apart. Save your locker, simplify your setup.
|
|
|
|
|
Syd
Jul 27, 2013, 9:38 PM
Post #24 of 29
(36296 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2012
Posts: 300
|
Syd wrote: I would have agreed with bearbreeder but I found this: [image]http://i.stack.imgur.com/4l4H2.jpg[/image]
I assume the problem with the pic on the right is simply that the two anchors are at the wrong end of the biner, ie they should be at the narrow end. Easy for the biner to flip around though.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Jul 28, 2013, 3:06 AM
Post #25 of 29
(36257 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
There are better ways, but the anchor is fine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
