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lonequail
Nov 6, 2013, 2:30 AM
Post #152 of 430
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Registered: Jun 8, 2004
Posts: 65
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In reply to: angry wrote: I honestly don't see a way to save this site. It is a tarnished brand and a joke. What's more, it does not have a single reason to visit other than the forums. Forums are essentially bathroom stall walls. People will write bullshit just to see their own bullshit. I'm as guilty as anyone. Not everyone wants to see that. Look at MP.com, I know very few people who post there yet nearly everyone I've met uses the site. What reason does anyone have to use this site if not to post? Finally, if you do want to save the site, lets be perfectly clear. jt512 has driven more users, some quality, away from this site than any other problem. Of course this is anecdotal but I believe it to be true. When he gets going, he provides a truly close up look at mental illness. Had he never visited the site, I bet we'd still be seeing 2010 type of traffic. I never noticed the spam, it was harmless and funny. Happy: Good to see you back from the dark side, or should that be "welcome back to the dark side"! Hope you're doing well.
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epoch
Moderator
Nov 6, 2013, 3:58 AM
Post #160 of 430
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Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
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Hey all. In the spirit of Jeff's edits yesterday regarding going off-topic in this thread, I have detached the cornerstone and beginning of the tryst conversation, that many of you -if you've been following for the past few hours - have seen in here. You will find that thread not locked, not stickied, in the General forum (this one). Please continue and keep your one-upsmanship and banter in there. I also took the liberty of hiding the rest of the posts that were not part of the quote tree.
The posts are not lost, nor are they deleted from this thread. They are only hidden from general view. The moderators and Jeff are able to see them; and if Jeff so desires he has full right to unhide them. With that said, yes I went heavy-handed on moderation and I am fully aware of doing so. This was quite deliberate and and within the intent of this thread and what Jeff is looking for.
Please keep this thread on topic (or as close to on topic as possible).
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jt512
Nov 6, 2013, 4:01 AM
Post #161 of 430
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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epoch wrote: Hey all. In the spirit of Jeff's edits yesterday regarding going off-topic in this thread, I have detached the cornerstone and beginning of the tryst conversation, that many of you -if you've been following for the past few hours - have seen in here. You will find that thread not locked, not stickied, in the General forum (this one). Please continue and keep your one-upsmanship and banter in there. I also took the liberty of hiding the rest of the posts that were not part of the quote tree. The posts are not lost, nor are they deleted from this thread. They are only hidden from general view. The moderators and Jeff are able to see them; and if Jeff so desires he has full right to unhide them. With that said, yes I went heavy-handed on moderation and I am fully aware of doing so. This was quite deliberate and and within the intent of this thread and what Jeff is looking for. Please keep this thread on topic (or as close to on topic as possible).
Epoch, please move the posts discussing blockquoting back to this thread. They are (I would hope) exactly the type of input from users Jeff is looking for.
Thanks in advance.
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epoch
Moderator
Nov 6, 2013, 4:09 AM
Post #162 of 430
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Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
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jt512 wrote: ...There has been a disturbing trend in forum software toward making it harder to include nested quotes or even multiple non-nested quotes in a post. One common software platform allows multiple quoting, by going back through the thread and individually clicking on the posts to be quoted, but (1) the mechanism is cumbersome, and so it is rarely used, and (2) even when it is used, the quoted posts are not nested or necessarily posted in the correct order, which makes it less useful for following the discussion. On forums with no or limited nested quoting, conversations frequently become derailed by accusations of people not following the train of thought or taking comments out of context. But you can't blame people for losing the train of thought or taking comments out of context, if they have to read through pages of posts in an attempt to figure out what the train of thought or the context actually is. In reply to: In fact, I kinda recall something years ago about Sungam trying to see how many nested quotes were required to crash the server. And succeeding. No, I don't think he was trying to, or did in fact, crash the server. In fact I don't think his prank caused any long-term, or even short-term trouble for the website. Since this website's niche has always been in-depth discussion about climbing, it would be far better to put up with the occasional prankster than to eliminate the very mechanism that allows for in-depth discussion to take place. That said, there could, perhaps, be a default limit of three or four levels of nesting imposed by the software, with the option of the poster overriding the default if he or she felt more levels of nesting were required for clarity.
(This post was edited by epoch on Nov 6, 2013, 4:18 AM)
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epoch
Moderator
Nov 6, 2013, 4:10 AM
Post #163 of 430
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Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
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jt512 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: "On forums with no or limited nested quoting, conversations frequently become derailed by accusations of people not following the train of thought or taking comments out of context." The only thing I didn't care about the quote function was that anyone could alter what was said inside of any quote. Even the author themselves should not be able to change a quote. We actually had a rule, instituted at my insistence, that intentionally misquoting a user was a bannable offence. |
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epoch
Moderator
Nov 6, 2013, 4:10 AM
Post #164 of 430
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Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
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I can't move those posts back but I quoted the last relevant posts from that thread. Please use them going forward.
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jt512
Nov 6, 2013, 4:22 AM
Post #165 of 430
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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epoch wrote: I can't move those posts back but I quoted the last relevant posts from that thread. Please use them going forward.
Thanks.
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mojomonkey
Nov 6, 2013, 5:01 AM
Post #166 of 430
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Registered: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 869
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happiegrrrl wrote: Another 24 hours and this thread will represent the perfect microcosm of rockclimbing.com. The comment about Buyer's Remorse is beginning to seem more apt - hahaha
Suddenly the SPAM doesn't seem so bad
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Jeff
Owner
Nov 6, 2013, 5:48 AM
Post #167 of 430
(9620 views)
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I just got in from a very long workday and I'm totally exhausted--I'm on the road this week so things are a bit helter-skelter.
Very much appreciate Epoch stepping in and moving the O/T posts elsewhere.
I know many of you are curious what I plan to do with this feedback and the site in general.
I don't expect to make many of the bigger decisions until mid-December because I've been reaching out to as many of you as I can to schedule private phone/skype conversations to dig deeper into some of the issues that have been raised in this thread. If you're interested in chatting and haven't heard from me, just PM me and we'll schedule a time.
I expect these conversations to be finished mid-December because scheduling all those conversations just takes a while, and at that point my wife and I will go on a few hikes to talk through what we've learned and make decisions regarding moderation policies and the culture we'd like to cultivate on the site.
That'll be the point where I expect some of you will choose to head elsewhere and some of you will choose to be more involved. It'd be nice if we could please everyone, but as I mentioned before, a site that appeals to everyone appeals to no one.
Anyway, just wanted to set expectations that mid-late December is my currently forecasted timeframe for those decisions.
(This post was edited by Jeff on Mar 9, 2014, 6:43 AM)
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curt
Nov 6, 2013, 6:26 PM
Post #169 of 430
(9494 views)
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
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Hi Jeff,
In my opinion, you would do well to listen to comments such as these, posted earlier in this very thread:
granite_grrl wrote: This thread has actually been one of the best in sense of community I have seen on RC.com for a long while. The community is what made this site what it was, and why it's been falling apart. For me, the best part of this site was always getting to know people and then making an effort to meet them and go climbing when I was in their area. This is the stuff that kept/keeps the prominant posters.
macherry wrote: i agree with gg, this thread....all posts... has brought back a sense of community. most of the posters have been through the many changes of management and have a lot to offer.
lena_chita wrote: I agree. If all threads are limited strictly to answering the factual question, then there is no point to the forums. There are FAQs, they can be expanded, read them, done. Back when I joined RC, I definitely felt a sense of community. It had a flavor, a tone, certain color to it. And all of that came not from answering 'which shoes do I get' with a standard 'try a bunch, pick the one that fits', but from extra conversations that surrounded the factual statements.
This sense of community is a nebulous thing. It isn't something that can be coded into a website or provided by site management--it can only come from the users themselves. It's interesting that a number of users felt that this thread provided that sense of community that has been lacking for some time.
On the other hand, while management can not provide "community" they can certainly kill the environment necessary for it to flourish--and by hiding posts and/or splitting off posts that you or other moderators don't feel are "relevant" you definitely run the risk of doing precisely that.
As mentioned earlier, the discussion forums have always been the crown jewel of RC.com, not the routes database or other site attributes. I think it's good that you're taking the time to talk with as many interested people as possible before implementing any permanent changes. Hopefully we can collectively get RC.com back to the point where this thread was briefly.
Curt
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Nov 7, 2013, 4:17 AM
Post #170 of 430
(9368 views)
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Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
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First, let me agree with [curt]’s comments above on the sense of community. He really hit the nail on the head. It is the community and building and maintaining that is a tricky task. Looking at the names in this thread still shows how deep the community goes. My recommendation would be to look at the comment history of [curt], [jt512], [angry], [adatesman], [JimTitt], and [rgold] to see what can be had and how it can be lost. Oh – and please read the “ask the n00b” and find Gabe W. again.
I don’t think the problem is technical, it is “social” and, yes, I do have several specific recommendations.
First – ditch the stars. If you can’t tell what is a good comment then the stars won’t help. It promotes a pettiness that is unseemly and not constructive.
Second, while the community must rule, the route guide should either be updated or shut down.
Third – release the Magid! I&A reports are so important. I think that the “corporate” hesitancy to talk about the risk in this sport killed discussion. Moderation of accidents is difficult, but people understanding what can go wrong counts in climbing. I had a bland I&A story of taking a friend climbing in a gym and his son’s minor fall. Would have been a good lesson to all, but without the active community – why would I spend my time posting? Accept that some “ambulance chasing” comes with an active I&A community. And when there is disagreement on cause or blame or fault, let it run – that is what we are here for. That is how we learn.
Fourth – bring back the lab! The lab doesn’t have to be perfect or worthy of peer review. Trust us, if it isn’t worthy, we will let them know. The lab doesn’t have to be perfect just interesting.
And lastly – since you title this thread “AMA” that points to reddit – that great anonymous glob machine. Don’t try to be reddit. The people who post here are people. We have our photos. Our names are listed. We, the great PTFTW masses make this site run. As we left (due to boredom), the site went down. Find ways that we can have fun and the non-posters, the non-accounts, the generic hit counts will return.
Again, the problem isn’t technical, it is personal.
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6pacfershur
Nov 7, 2013, 5:00 AM
Post #171 of 430
(9355 views)
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Registered: Jun 23, 2010
Posts: 254
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burn it to the ground, collect the insurance, move to the North Shore.........
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notapplicable
Nov 7, 2013, 6:02 AM
Post #172 of 430
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
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adatesman wrote: angry wrote: adatesman wrote: God damn... This place is worse than smack. All over my FB feed, I'm here again for another hit.... I've been clean for almost 4 years (minus a few drive by's). Maybe that goes to show that there still is interest in this site. Clearly. Dragged me back after a very public ugliness, didn't it? On a side note, I thought I left before you? Which is to say, I have no memory of you leaving. Has it been that many years?
He thought you were handled too roughly during the whole slash and burn episode. He resigned in protest. It was all very touching.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Nov 7, 2013, 6:04 AM)
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notapplicable
Nov 7, 2013, 6:43 AM
Post #173 of 430
(9307 views)
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Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
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Dear new Over Lord, you're being given sound advice.
Yes, It would be nice to have a slick route database, up-to-date climbing news on the front page, a well organized photo & video archive, etc... but ultimately, at the end of the day, the one thing this site has traditionally been about are the forums and the community they foster(ed?). Don't smother that.
I personally think this site can walk and talk at the same time so please, change the architecture of the place, but make it an open concept affair. No fences and minimal grounds patrols. The inmates can run this asylum just fine.
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blueshrimp
Nov 7, 2013, 1:31 PM
Post #174 of 430
(9272 views)
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Registered: Jun 24, 2008
Posts: 147
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To the new owner I have only one suggestion/request:
Please change the theme of the site. It looks horrible and it has the color of green vomit.
Thank you.
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granite_grrl
Nov 7, 2013, 2:23 PM
Post #175 of 430
(9247 views)
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
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blueshrimp wrote: To the new owner I have only one suggestion/request: Please change the theme of the site. It looks horrible and it has the color of green vomit. Thank you.
I still have the option on the front page to change my colour scheme. I'm using blue.
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