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Gravitron5000
Nov 8, 2013, 2:38 PM
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adatesman wrote: Anyway, this then leads us to Jeff New Boss. Having figured out what he does for a living, it's pretty clear this thread is *entirely* market research and a way to figure out how best to monetize the site. I don't doubt for a moment he actually climbs (pictures aren't hard to find), but given what he does I have no doubt that he's not looking to keep the lights on as a public service. If he was, he'd have mentioned being a longtime user by now. But he hasn't. Which means that this entire thread is market research to determine how to achieve the best ROI on his purchase. Very shrewd move on his part, and I'm very curious to see how it falls out.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this. As long as the site is providing something of use, I personally could not care less how it is monetized. A healthy business is more likely to stick around than one that can barely keep the lights on.
Now, one of the big reasons the I have lurked on this site over the years is that watching the forum explode in a spiralling out of control flame-fest of awesomeness is great entertainment. I feel it would be a shame to lose this aspect of the site. That said, I think that the beginner forum should be much more heavily moderated. I have lost count of the number of times that a new poster posts in that forum and is driven away by the aggressiveness of the responses. If you're trying to grow the sense of community, that's a pretty poor way of going about it.
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happiegrrrl
Nov 8, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #252 of 430
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angry wrote: I honestly don't see a way to save this site. It is a tarnished brand and a joke.
While currently, the site is a joke, and as I said upthread it has always had a gumby flair, I think that the site, as a brand was actually never developed.
People who are new to climbing find this website quite frequently. If you click the "Who's Online" tab, it almost always has over 2K guests within the last 15 minutes; people who aren't logged in, haven't bothered to register and such. 2K in 15 minutes is not bad - at all - and if compared to the Registered Users, which is unbearably pathetic these days, it seems an interesting juxtaposition.
The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had.
As Adatesman has alluded, Jeff is an experienced entrepreneur with credibility and knows his way around web business(I had sent him a PM and he mentioned a link to an article he wrote, which allowed an easy Google search). Why he is bothering with a rock climbing site - maybe it's just a personal hobby; I couldn't guess. But it seems to me that he is more than capable of turning this site into something not-yet seen on the web.
On the other hand....I have to admit it has occurred to me that one of the monkeys has hacked the site and the whole "new owner" thing is a joke. It would be a good one; well played, if that were the case. But I would rather it be real.
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Nov 8, 2013, 3:25 PM)
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angry
Nov 8, 2013, 3:13 PM
Post #253 of 430
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Curt, Aric, cut that shit out. Neither of you are doing yourselves any favors.
It makes me wonder if part of the problem with "noise" here is how easy it is to make the noise. I've seen forums that would only allow a post or two an hour, less if you are a new user. That sounds like both a horrible idea and a great one.
One the one hand, it's pretty stiffling. On the other though, you'd think twice before posting nonsense or just arguing.
Several years ago I posted on bike forums a question about high end parts for a road bike and the blasphemy of mixing Italian steel with Japanese shifters. In the post, since I was talking about expensive parts, I made mention that I wasn't rich but I had never had to blow a dude for a pack of GU.
Why did I mention that, because in my warped mind, it was hilarious. Especially how such an absurd little one liner completely sent the management into panic mode. A day later I got an email telling me not to do it again.
I wrote the mod a letter a strange email somehow twisting what I said to mean that he supports blowing a dude for a pack of GU. I told him that I was not judging him and somehow worked a handjob from an Eskimo into the letter. It was beautiful really.
I got banned. Their official reason, I was a problem user.
It would be an absolute pity to lose the ability to have fun and sometimes sexist banter around here. That would probably put the final nail in the coffin.
TL:DR version
Assholes = bad
Open communication = OK
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roninthorne
Nov 8, 2013, 4:05 PM
Post #254 of 430
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ncrockclimber wrote: Ron, I am not calling for "heavy" moderation. I am also not asking for my anyone to back me up. I am simply saying that a few VERY persistent posters think that it is appropriate to be rude and condescending to anyone that disagrees with them. That type of behavior, although amusing at times, tends to drive away users that don't want to enter into a verbal sparing match on every thread. Every forum has a personality. The personality being espoused by some posters on this thread is one that does not appeal to me. I think that user traffic shows that I am not alone in this opinion.
Actually, it's Mike, but the mistake is common ;)
User traffic simply shows reduced numbers. Several other very popular sites have opened since RC's debut, and the public is fickle. There was, concurrently, a breakdown in RC.com's management that was evident to all concerned. And yes, there were, are, and likely will always be "mean people" online, deviants in this age of social media, who are a bit more concerned with the facts and keeping the betastream clean than preserving anyone's self esteem.
But there was no exit poll asking "Why are you leaving RC.com?" So interpretations of the decline are still a matter of conjecture. As always, the truth seems to lie somewhere in between.
Mountainzone went through the same thing, died, was jolted awake by lightning, and is now a sad mutant of what was once a thriving community and world-wide web of voices, some of them not particularly nice but extraordinarily experienced.
The analysis of that demise was much the same as this: logic and reason gradually eroded by old feuds, butthurt and obsession with being nice to noobs and accepting fixed draws and dogs at the crag as your friends... or screaming about those things.
Ain't nothing new under the sun.
Best of luck, Jeff.
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curt
Nov 8, 2013, 5:07 PM
Post #255 of 430
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happiegrrrl wrote: ...The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had...
Actually, there is no other climbing website where you will find the same detailed discussions about the forces involved in climbing, accident analysis or climbing injuries. To say that RC.com has always been the "dumb kid" in the family is more an elitist slur made on other sites than reality.
Curt
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cracklover
Nov 8, 2013, 6:30 PM
Post #256 of 430
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curt wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: ...The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had... Actually, there is no other climbing website where you will find the same detailed discussions about the forces involved in climbing, accident analysis or climbing injuries. To say that RC.com has always been the "dumb kid" in the family is more an elitist slur made on other sites than reality. Curt
You know that's not right either, Curt. There are a lot of n00bs here, and that *does* make a lot of the discussion sound idiotic.
It's not one or the other. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - rc.com, at its very best, is one thing:
A Big Tent
That tent includes
- The sorts of excellent discussion you mention upthread, that you know I appreciate (and often contribute to)
- Stupid banter between friends
- Stupid comments from noobs and idiots
And often those three things are combined, sometimes in ways that are funny, sometimes in ways that are just a big mess.
How the new owners could set the rules guidelines to maximize the best that rc.com could be, is a very tough question.
GO
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padlinfool
Nov 8, 2013, 8:59 PM
Post #257 of 430
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Posts: 10
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I have been a lurker here for a few years….I assume I am not alone, nor in the minority. I found my way by searching about rock climbing, seeking info on how to climb “safer” and more efficiently. I entered this “activity” later in life, so the need for me to be some hard-ass climber (or forum poster) has long past…..but I digress.
The site(mainly forum) has generally fulfilled my needs. There have been thoughtful and boisterous discussions about a myriad of topics. There are also some interesting articles and FAQ’s. Wading through the “forum noise” is both entertaining and frustrating. There are many prolific and knowledgeable contributors here, whom are sometimes at odds…such is life and the diversity is part of the appeal.
I do think the quality of posts and responses have declined, maybe this is natural. Some of this could be due to the constant berating of noobs who ask inevitably noobish questions….If all the noob questions have already been asked and some scornfully refer to the search/FAQ….why have a Beginner Forum? Alienating the noob is counterproductive.. both to their well-being and to this site . I can understand the “experienced” suffering from boredom/frustration…. but the Beginner Forum is invaluable and should be promoted. ….it is the front door for many, it was for me.
The search engine is weak. Some further sorting capability would be helpful.
I appreciate the “regulars” desire to keep us safe from maiming ourselves and others by flaming perceived bad/dangerous info. Sometimes we noobs don’t get the severity of the situation and any explanation more than “YGTD”, would be fruitful….. I have learned much from the nitpicking nature of some.
I don’t want grammar lessons, Period. In this environment of words/ideas, words do matter and gravity has its consequence but my main concern will always be… going up and getting down with relative safety , ease, understanding and enjoyment. How this site aids that goal (plus its simple entertainment value) is why I am here.
I am not opposed to forum moderation that keeps the conversation “generally” on topic. Topics wander and that is to be expected and natural… but witnessing contributors personally bashing and baiting each other in the corner gets tedious …. I am all for a spirited expression of a difference in opinion… Swing Away.
The route database could be much improved, others are better. Some of the suggestions regarding tying them to the forums are interesting. I think providing a better tool to the group would naturally fill in gaps.
Jeff, Good Luck on your new endeavor. The success or failure of this site will be at the hands of the “Community” under your guidance. There are some real characters here, classic Gems. This thread shows that they are still connected to this place. It would be a shame to lose them …no matter how dysfunctional they are. Thanks for trying. Climb On.
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roninthorne
Nov 8, 2013, 9:23 PM
Post #258 of 430
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Just following the db a bit further-
After all the hype about the better routes db on MP and the Taco, I just went over there and looked again.
The Taco doesn't even deign to acknowledge our existence, while the WV db on Mountain Project is run by an admin living in New Hampshire, one in Colorado, and one in Germany.
None of them had anything to do with developing the routes or building trails at the crags of WV, as far as I can determine.
Pardon me if I think other sites might not have their finger on the pulse when it comes to up-to-date db's, either...
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happiegrrrl
Nov 8, 2013, 9:39 PM
Post #259 of 430
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In reply to: To say that RC.com has always been the "dumb kid" in the family is more an elitist slur made on other sites than reality.
I wasn't referring to the various features of the site, but the general tone that pervades much of the site.
padlinfool wrote: I have been a lurker here for a few years….There are some real characters here, classic Gems. This thread shows that they are still connected to this place. It would be a shame to lose them …no matter how dysfunctional they are. Thanks for trying. Climb On.
roninthorne wrote: The Taco doesn't even deign to acknowledge our existence...
As an aside, one area that the owner of Supertopo had expanded, and then decided to build out as a separate domain, was their gear reviews, which became http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/
I thought they did a pretty good job with the project.
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onceahardman
Nov 8, 2013, 10:41 PM
Post #260 of 430
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I just saw this thread.
I'm glad someone has taken over, and I hope they are financially successful.
I contribute mostly only to the Injuries forum. I'd like to think I have been generally helpful to people. Generally, people behave pretty well in there. If the new owners would like me to moderate that forum, I could manage a few hours a week.
I find the Taco and MP generally less interesting. Maybe I just haven't spent the time to learn the personalities over there.
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camhead
Nov 8, 2013, 11:44 PM
Post #261 of 430
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roninthorne wrote: ...while the WV db on Mountain Project is run by an admin living in New Hampshire, one in Colorado, and one in Germany. None of them had anything to do with developing the routes or building trails at the crags of WV, as far as I can determine.
Trust me, some friends and I (all NRG locals) are trying to remedy this situation at mp, but with not much luck so far.
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USnavy
Nov 10, 2013, 4:12 AM
Post #262 of 430
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happiegrrrl wrote: angry wrote: I honestly don't see a way to save this site. It is a tarnished brand and a joke. If you click the "Who's Online" tab, it almost always has over 2K guests within the last 15 minutes;
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USnavy
Nov 10, 2013, 4:25 AM
Post #263 of 430
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curt wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: ...The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had... Actually, there is no other climbing website where you will find the same detailed discussions about the forces involved in climbing Curt
Anyone who has been in the climbing gear engineering/ physics realm for more than a minute knows about the International Technical Rescue Symposium, which is the place to be for climbing and rescue geekery. If you conduct a formal study and you want people to see it, you go to the ITRS. For the many years the ITRS has existed, they have always made available their presenters' technical articles. You can view them on their website.
http://www.itrsonline.org/
(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 10, 2013, 4:32 AM)
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Jeff
Owner
Nov 10, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #264 of 430
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Quick update:
I was traveling all last week for work, thought I'd be able to get on here a bit, but had more work meeting/dinners/company parties that I needed to go to than I anticipated.
My apologies for the total lack of responsiveness on PM's--I'm working my way through them tonight/tomorrow/monday night.
This week, I was able to connect with epoch and sangiro for an hour and a half chat each.
Today, my wife and I spent about half the day working on stuff related to the site.
----
Someone asked if this is a for-profit venture or a hobby... yes and yes. I didn't buy the site purely for financial reasons--forums are notorious for being a lot of work relative to profit. And I didn't buy the site for purely non-financial reasons either--I do want the site to make money.
There's two moments that come to mind that explain why we bought this site.
1) Three years ago, we were backpacking a piece of the JMT in the Sierras, and I remember walking along a stretch of trail thinking "It's probably not realistic that I can be in the mountains all the time, but I bet I can find a business that's tied closely to the outdoors." At the time I figured that'd have to be a gear company of some kind, although I wasn't excited about the logistics nightmare of dealing with the supply chain of physical objects.
2) About a year and a half ago, we were backpacking again and got to talking about what the digital equivalent of rental property might be. Something that we could work on in our spare time as a small business that didn't require outside investment. We weren't quite sure, but I never forgot that concept of digital landlording.
So when the opportunity to buy this site came my way, I thought it fit all of these criteria.
Reading this, I'm sure you're wondering if we're approaching this as build-it-up and then sell it. I'm not going to say that we'll never sell the site, just as you can't say that you'll always be able to climb for the rest of your life--things happen unexpectedly, health issues, etc and something may force us to sell.
But our plan isn't to sell--we bought this with the plan that we'll just run it as a hobby business for the next 10+ years, and at that point we'll see where the tech world is and if websites even exist. It checks all three boxes that I talked about earlier of getting us closer to the outdoors and being a hobby business with low capital requirements. Plus it's definitely the type of business that provides the freedom that any given day we can just decide not to work on the site and go climbing instead.
The last thing I'll say along these lines is I'm not too concerned about the traffic and revenue numbers--I believe if rockclimbing.com provides a great experience for users, the traffic and revenue will take care of itself. If we focus on improving the site, I'll have a good time, you'll have a good time, more people will hang out here, and revenue will increase.
I firmly believe it's in everyone's best interest that this site generates revenue. The more money the site generates, the more options I have in the future to work full time on this site or hire someone else to do so, which means the site experience gets better even faster.
Hopefully that provides some clarity on why we bought the site and why we have no plans to sell.
(This post was edited by Jeff on Mar 9, 2014, 6:43 AM)
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happiegrrrl
Nov 10, 2013, 12:52 PM
Post #265 of 430
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Sounds like you're on the path to a dirtbag lifestyle.....that sometimes happens when you're traveling down the highway of life, decide to take a few back roads and then suddenly find yourself living the lyrics of the Talking Heads "Once In a Lifetime" song.
Hopefully you set enough aside enough to get a van!
(This post was edited by happiegrrrl on Nov 10, 2013, 4:54 PM)
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amarius
Nov 10, 2013, 2:22 PM
Post #266 of 430
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OK, then here some ideas -
A real Route DB app for Android - this is one niche where Wolverine fed up, and MProject is inadequate. Use AR if feeling fancy
Questions regarding recommended shoes always pop-up. Shoe fit is mostly determined by the foot shape, having a DB of foot shapes and good/bad shoe fits might be interesting.
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jmeizis
Nov 11, 2013, 2:58 PM
Post #267 of 430
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The only reason I come to this site is for the climbing log, which has the potential to be a helpful training tool by using the information to monitor various other metrics. So the route database and climbing log, if the database were better organized, could be developed as a helpful app as well.
The forums are solely entertainment value.
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lofstromc
Nov 11, 2013, 4:13 PM
Post #268 of 430
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Camhead,
Check your PM.
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curt
Nov 11, 2013, 5:57 PM
Post #269 of 430
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USnavy wrote: curt wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: ...The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had... Actually, there is no other climbing website where you will find the same detailed discussions about the forces involved in climbing Curt Even back when rc.com was the place to be, there were other sites that offered more formal and educational data on technical subjects. Anyone who has been in the climbing gear engineering/ physics realm for more than a minute knows about the International Technical Rescue Symposium, which is the place to be for climbing and rescue geekery. If you conduct a formal study and you want people to see it, you go to the ITRS. For the many years the ITRS has existed, they have always made available their presenters' technical articles. You can view them on their website. http://www.itrsonline.org/
There are several sites like that, including gear manufacturer's sites such as Petzl's, that have useful information. They are not, however, discussion sites.
Curt
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majid_sabet
Nov 11, 2013, 7:17 PM
Post #270 of 430
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Business corporation and profit mentality has its own place but climbers are from different planet visiting earth so you have to find the right way of communicating with them. with today's technology and means of communications and networking,climbers can bring down any kingdom if they decide to do it. there is always plenty of warning given ahead of time when ship approaching a black hole and a good leader is the one who can do the job without others knowing that he or she exist.
belay is on
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Nov 11, 2013, 7:19 PM)
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dynosore
Nov 11, 2013, 9:53 PM
Post #271 of 430
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I used to post regularly here but drifted away. Many reasons, some personal some related to the site.
It's a small thing, but hopefully useful: one of my pet peeves was always seeing some chick on the main page instead of a climbing photo. If I want to see women there's plenty of that on the net, and if women are desperate for attention I suggest Facebook.....now if the woman us actually climbing it's all good.
Point being, profile pics, selfies, and the like shouldn't be the "top photo". I come here to indulge my climbing interests.
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roughster
Nov 12, 2013, 8:10 PM
Post #272 of 430
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Jeff,
I have a long history here including being a Mod, a scape goat, the villain, and one of the few people who actively provided quality content for an extended period.
Search the Forum for my user name and you'll be able to read all about it.
RC.com was popular for awhile for one real reason:
Signal to Noise Ratio
Several of the original mods made it our goal to keep this in check. I am not patting myself on the back, I am simply stating fact. When this was managed, the site was popular. When it stopped being actively managed, and those who were doing the management of the signal to noise ratio were demonized, the site went down hill.
Some of the best commentary on this site took place on Supertopo:
http://www.supertopo.com/...g=1903545#msg1903545
Feel free to PM / email me to discuss further if you would like.
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majid_sabet
Nov 12, 2013, 10:27 PM
Post #273 of 430
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USnavy wrote: curt wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: ...The online climbing community is a small world. While RC.com has always been the dumb kid in the family, it's STILL considered part of the family. There's no reason that kid can't change and kick ass. Those who have even a small memory of it's history may appreciate the improvement. Those who are new will find the site and find a reason to register - if something of value can be had... Actually, there is no other climbing website where you will find the same detailed discussions about the forces involved in climbing Curt Even back when rc.com was the place to be, there were other sites that offered more formal and educational data on technical subjects. Anyone who has been in the climbing gear engineering/ physics realm for more than a minute knows about the International Technical Rescue Symposium, which is the place to be for climbing and rescue geekery. If you conduct a formal study and you want people to see it, you go to the ITRS. For the many years the ITRS has existed, they have always made available their presenters' technical articles. You can view them on their website. http://www.itrsonline.org/
its cost almost $1000(reg, hotel and airline) to attend three days in ITRS and its mainly a gathering place to exchange knowledge and meet experienced people in the rescue industry along with mfgs reps.
Not a place for an average climber such yourself
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jt512
Nov 12, 2013, 10:49 PM
Post #274 of 430
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roughster wrote: I have a long history here including being a Mod, a scape goat, the villain, and one of the few people who actively provided quality content for an extended period. Several of the original mods made it our goal to keep this in check. I am not patting myself on the back, I am simply stating fact.
Too funny!
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adatesman
Nov 13, 2013, 1:35 AM
Post #275 of 430
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Care to give context to this, JT?: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2379186#2379186
jt512 wrote: I've conceded that elsewhere. The majority of users here have gotten not only what they deserve, but what they actually prefer: garbage. Jay
Which is to say I don't understand your response to Roughster, JT, unless I do a search. Seems there's a long string of people who think you're a detriment to the site. I wonder why that might be?
EDIT: Here's Roughster circa 2005: roughster wrote: I would be curious as to the general consensus of the few remaining people who frequented this site who were around at that time really feel the shift from signal to noise was a good choice? Certainly someone got paid, but in the end, I'll be honest, I feel that time has proven the point. I find it interesting that sites most often take their most prolific contributors, make them mods/admins, then ultimately end up splitting ways based upon the catcalls and pettiness of a few non-contributors. A search back to the mudslingers of 2005 show that very few have posted past 2006 and many of them were obviously troll accounts that abruptly quit contributing once their agenda was accomplished. Is this the cycle of the modern day internet website? I am honestly wondering if a true signal focused website actually has a chance at success or if the anonymity of the internet and Ring of Gyges just proves too strong of a force? It's really too bad IMO. RC could've been a contender so to speak. Now? LOL.
Wow. I can't believe I never looked into the origin story of JT. Quite the interesting story, all of which is there for everyone to read. Including the explanation of why he'd be so unpleasant to Roughster.
Tell me, JT, do you really want Jeff to dig into your history with the site, which apparently no one remembers?
(This post was edited by adatesman on Nov 13, 2013, 2:26 AM)
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