|
WuddyBoy
Feb 5, 2014, 10:24 PM
Post #1 of 23
(9869 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2014
Posts: 4
|
I'm going to work the first ascent of a combination of climbs for one continuous route, but I'm not sure what the final grade will be. Can anyone give me some insight?
step 1: a 10ft long v6 traverse that links into a
step 2: 15ft long v2 and then a
step 3: 5.12c route which has about 20ft of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Feb 6, 2014, 12:21 AM
Post #2 of 23
(9841 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
12d/13a at most. 
My reasoning is that the crux seems to be at the beginning, which makes it easier, overall, than if the crux was at the end. For someone who climbs the grade, V2 section would be a rest, and the 12c section sounds like it is pretty short, and doesn't add much to the grade, if it coming after what sounds like a good rest section.
But seriously, if you are climbing the grade, you should know that there is no formula. You compare it to other climbs you have done around the same grade. So much would depend on things you haven't mentioned-- the degree of the overhang, the presence of rest stances, etc.
And if you don't have experience to grade it, you leave it to people who can. Just say that it is harder than anything you have climbed, or describe it like you just did here, and let the consensus build. At the grade you propose, there should be plenty of people to climb it quickly, and grade it for you.
|
|
|
|
|
JohnCook
Feb 6, 2014, 10:09 AM
Post #3 of 23
(9752 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 221
|
5.12c is the hardest bit so that should be the grade. It can't get any harder than the hardest bit can it?
Your post title and post don't seem to agree, title 5.13c, post 5.12c!
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Feb 6, 2014, 11:00 AM
Post #4 of 23
(9745 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
JohnCook wrote: It can't get any harder than the hardest bit can it?
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Feb 6, 2014, 11:55 AM
Post #5 of 23
(9731 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
JohnCook wrote: 5.12c is the hardest bit so that should be the grade. It can't get any harder than the hardest bit can it?
You don't climb overhanging routes much?
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
Feb 6, 2014, 1:15 PM
Post #6 of 23
(9717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
What Lena said, V6 is like .12d, and it's at the start, so the final .12c section isn't going to bump the grade up much if at all. You're probably looking at .12d, possibly bumped up to .13a.
|
|
|
|
|
JohnCook
Feb 6, 2014, 2:12 PM
Post #7 of 23
(9695 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 221
|
I climb lots of overhanging routes. They are an art form which involve conservation of energy. It may be because I am English, but overhangs, and particularly horizontal roofs are something I enjoy.
|
|
|
|
|
DouglasHunter
Feb 6, 2014, 8:53 PM
Post #8 of 23
(9611 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2010
Posts: 106
|
WuddyBoy wrote: I'm going to work the first ascent of a combination of climbs for one continuous route, but I'm not sure what the final grade will be. Can anyone give me some insight? step 1: a 10ft long v6 traverse that links into a step 2: 15ft long v2 and then a step 3: 5.12c route which has about 20ft of climbing.
It depends what version of the V scale you are using. The V scale is so out of whack these days that when you say V6 you could mean anything from V4 - V7. So, if the problem is true V6 (it would be V6 at Heuco) and there is 5.12c climbing, then really I would say it has to be 5.13a. I have never done a 12d with a V6 crux, (ive done hundreds of routes at the grade) but a short climb really needs to have V7 on it if it is going to be 5.13b. If the V6 is soft then it would be 12d at the max.
|
|
|
|
|
WuddyBoy
Feb 6, 2014, 9:57 PM
Post #9 of 23
(9600 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2014
Posts: 4
|
It's without a doubt in the 5.13 level. A consensus is going to be difficult, because this is the third hardest route at my local crag and I'm surprised no one has done this FA yet.
Personally 5.12c and V6 are the hardest climbs that I've accomplished in my life. And they just so happen to be the two of three climbs that I'm linking together. I can attest that the V6 is not that much more difficult than the 5.12c section. The 5.12c is an extremely overhung arete with a low percentage move.
It's going to start with this boulder problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iUCAn8yW-s
and then link into this climb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMlyemyrnN0
Thanks for the insight Lena
(This post was edited by WuddyBoy on Feb 6, 2014, 10:06 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
skelldify
Feb 6, 2014, 11:29 PM
Post #10 of 23
(9574 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 20, 2013
Posts: 91
|
So, if 12c is the hardest route you've ever climbed, and you can almost do this one, what makes you think you are suddenly able to climb a WHOLE NUMBER GRADE harder (I believe 13c was thrown out there by you earlier)?
How can you even presume to know what 5.13 feels like?!
Add in the fact that two parts of the "route" are the two hardest route and boulder grades you've climbed, and we can conclude that they're probably soft. Just being realistic, no one breaks into a grade on a sandbagged route.
Sounds to me like you're just trying to justify giving this route a harder grade than it deserves. Do it as a personal challenge, don't do it to boost your ego.
|
|
|
|
|
WuddyBoy
Feb 7, 2014, 6:32 PM
Post #11 of 23
(9460 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2014
Posts: 4
|
I have goals when it comes to climbing and this goal is to push my hardest red point to match my physical strength, which is at low 5.13. My only weakness is endurance, which is why I'm not ready to climb this route. I can do every move on this route, but I don't have the aerobic endurance and power endurance to do it. It's not for an ego boost, simply to get a FA and to move my level of climbing further to reach my goal.
5.13c in the title is a mistake, it should say 5.12c. Obviously I've talked about this with long time locals of the crag. They have much more experience and knowledge about grades and climbs there than I do. I'm here to acquire useful inside and outside the box info.
|
|
|
|
|
gosharks
Feb 7, 2014, 10:06 PM
Post #12 of 23
(9416 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 7, 2004
Posts: 268
|
WuddyBoy wrote: I have goals when it comes to climbing and this goal is to push my hardest red point to match my physical strength, which is at low 5.13. My only weakness is endurance, which is why I'm not ready to climb this route. I can do every move on this route, but I don't have the aerobic endurance and power endurance to do it
That's kind of how routes go... You do not have 5.13 physical strength - you have "V6" strength. The 5.12c that you have done is more a boulder problem than a route - it just happens to be on a rope.
I know plenty of boulderers that are able to hang dog their way up 5.13, but that doesn't mean that they are anywhere close to being able to send 5.13 - or know what 5.13 actually feels like when they are not hang dogging.
Anyways, back on topic. I would give it 13a at BEST, and would lean more toward 12d as it looks like there might be decent places to rest at.
(This post was edited by gosharks on Feb 7, 2014, 10:12 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jb2100
Feb 9, 2014, 4:58 AM
Post #13 of 23
(9318 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2010
Posts: 20
|
So...when you send this are you planning on toproping it? The legitimacy of this whole thing kind of goes down a little bit after watching the video of the 12c being toproped.
But apart from that it's better to be the guy who sandbagged a route than who overgraded it. As others have said, if you've never sent any harder than V6 or 12c and now you're combining them it's hard to say with any certainty how difficult this is. All you can really say is that its harder than 12c. I'd go with 12d, based off that alone. If you later send more 12d's that have been established and the grade has been settled by consensus and you feel it's harder then you can upgrade it. But from personal experience (my local crag also has short routes in the 20 to 40 foot range) a V6 crux would make at least a 12d, or possibly a 13a if you followed it by a really tough 12c with no chance to rest. The V2 wouldn't add anything to it. If there is a good rest between the V6 and the 12c then it would probably just be 12d.
Most important of all, don't put up a video of you toproping this thing and call it a send.
|
|
|
|
|
WuddyBoy
Feb 9, 2014, 9:03 AM
Post #14 of 23
(9290 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2014
Posts: 4
|
At my local crag there are two forms of climbing: top-rope or bouldering, because the rock is too soft of sandstone to support trad or sport climbing. I would be more than happy to sport climb it, but it's not an option. Unfortunately it's not a sport climb, because that would make the climb a lot easier. The top rope gets snagged on the arete during the overhanging section.
|
|
|
|
|
jb2100
Feb 10, 2014, 4:50 PM
Post #15 of 23
(9130 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2010
Posts: 20
|
Never heard of a type of rock that couldn't support bolts (except choss). Where is this place exactly? You should try glue-in bolts.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Feb 10, 2014, 5:09 PM
Post #16 of 23
(9122 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 3118
|
jb2100 wrote: Where is this place exactly?
....which looks to be truly chossy.
Besides the fact that lead climbing is forbidden...glue-ins would probably work, but it looks like it wouldn't be worth either the cost, the effort, or the risk involved (IMO).
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Feb 10, 2014, 5:30 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
alpinerock
Feb 10, 2014, 5:55 PM
Post #17 of 23
(9103 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 17, 2003
Posts: 600
|
Just to be contentious here, I've done a handful of 5.12d's with V6 moves on them, and at least one 5.12c that had a V6 move ! ;)
Douglas, I believe that you climbed quite a bit up AF canyon back when it was still being developed? Did you ever, by chance, do "I'll take black" at El Diablo? I think that the move on there is definitely V6. As for 12d with V6 moves on it, I personally believe that the start to melting and the move getting into position under the roof on Reanimator are both V6-ish.
Back to the question at hand, as someone who's done both a fair number of FA's and has spent a lot of time on short, bouldery routes, I wouldn't give it anything harder than 5.12d. For a route that short to get 5.13a, it really needs at least a v7 move on it, or at least multiple v6 moves.
(This post was edited by alpinerock on Feb 10, 2014, 6:16 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dagibbs
Feb 10, 2014, 7:14 PM
Post #18 of 23
(9083 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2007
Posts: 921
|
jb2100 wrote: Never heard of a type of rock that couldn't support bolts (except choss). Where is this place exactly? You should try glue-in bolts.
I have. Harrison's Rocks in southern England, for example, is a short cliff of soft sandstone. No lead climbing is allowed there, only bouldering/free solo and top-rope climbing. For TR they strongly recommend near-static ropes to prevent rope movement from sawing on the rock (and from falls hitting the ground as it is fairly short), and also using whatever other methods you can to protect the rock from rope abrasion.
Probably not where the OP is climbing, but such places do exist.
|
|
|
|
|
lena_chita
Moderator
Feb 10, 2014, 7:27 PM
Post #19 of 23
(9074 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 6087
|
jb2100 wrote: Never heard of a type of rock that couldn't support bolts (except choss). Where is this place exactly? You should try glue-in bolts.
I have.
Local place near me, toproping and bouldering are the only allowed type of climbing. No bolted anchors, either, you set up toprope off trees. It is a chosspile. But people climb there regularly.
Sounds like a similar situation for OP.
I wouldn't waste time trying to grade a link-up under such circumstances, or attempt to call it an FA, but then again, at the local area here, there are variations of every climb, and some people remember what every variation of 25ft choss is called, graded, and what's the beta on those.
|
|
|
|
|
flesh
Feb 10, 2014, 10:23 PM
Post #20 of 23
(9036 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 419
|
agree 12d/13a
There's a local climb, crosseyed and painless, v6 or v7 into nearly no hands into 12d for 6 bolts, it gets 13 a/b.
The boulder problem is hard enough, the first two bolts, that even if you sit at the no hands for a full minute or two you haven't fully recovered. It seems like it should be easier, but it's at least 13a. Some endurance oriented climbers have a hard time completing the lower problem and the upper sections crux is at the top.
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Feb 10, 2014, 10:43 PM
Post #21 of 23
(9031 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
If that rest in between the two is a stemming rest, which is looks like it is, then probably hard 12c or easy 12d. Otherwise, I would go with 13a. All of this assumes the grades are accurate.
|
|
|
|
|
kennoyce
Feb 11, 2014, 1:53 PM
Post #22 of 23
(8969 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
|
johnwesely wrote: All of this assumes the grades are accurate.
Which is a pretty big assumption based on the videos that were posted;)
|
|
|
|
|
johnwesely
Feb 11, 2014, 2:16 PM
Post #23 of 23
(8961 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
For the record, even though these types of grading conversations have become a painfully dead horse, I still find them oddly compelling. what exactly makes a climb difficult is such a complex and hard to understand concept that I doubt I will ever tire of pointlessly discussing it indefinitely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
