An often overlooked aspect is that grades are subjective and not only for the grader but the climber as well so precision is impossible despite what the less experienced climber might wish.

Two other examples:
Reeds Pinnacle Direct - the crux 2nd pitch is rated 5.9 - there is no move harder than 5.7 in 120' of crack. There is also no move easier than 5.7 in that 120'.

Hot Line - when Barber did the FA, he rated it the then outrageous and non-existent 5.11. In a magazine interview he justified the new grade by saying that there were so many 10d moves in a row that it was harder than any other 10d.

No move harder than 5.7 on Reeds Direct....that's funny. Like laughable.

That's why I specifically restricted it to the 120' of P2, which really doesn't have any 5.9 moves. That 10'-ish stretch on P1 is certainly 5.9 as is that annoying 4" wide bit at the end of P2. Damned few folks do P3, which is probably more like 10b from what I hear (never did it).

[..]But I think the original point was not about whether or not the YDS grade reflected the substainess or if it was simply a snapshot of the 1 most difficult move, but the point was whether the YDS or any system based on rating the most difficult part of the climb was adequate for describing the difficulty/danger of the climb. Of course its always a dubious practice to assume you know what Jacgues is talking about.

But I think his point is that there are a lot of other factors that go into characterizing the over all difficult of a climb. Jacques is constantly bashing sport climbers and loves to present scenerios where some with a sport climbing mentality will get into trouble when they attempt to trad climb

How did people ever climb before reams of beta, guidebooks, and ratings [..]
If you can't tell the difference between a 2 pitch climb and a grade IV, you don't belong on either.

One difficulty of climbing is the variability of the skill of climber. How rating a route work?


took one climber and let him climb three routes at the gunks. Shockley ceiling, Bonnies roof and Fat city. He will rate it 5.6, 5.8 and 5.10. A second climber will rate them 5.5, 5.9 and 5.11, a third 5.7, 5.7 and 5.10... when you will have the results of one hundred, you will have a means of 5.6, 5.8 and 5.10 for the hardiest move for each climb. It is statistical.

For the overall difficulty, the problem is that the time will vary with the skill of the climber. If you are a 5.11 climber, you will rate Shockley ceiling I, Bonnies Roof I and Fat city II. If you are a 5.8 climber, you will rate Shockley ceiling I, Bonnies roof II and fat city could take you a day because you will hangdogging before finally you make the move. So it will rate III. If you are a 5.6 climber, it will be II for shockley, III for Bonnies and IV A-3 for fat city.

So, I am pretty sure that you didn't understand the rating system that way, and recognize the differences between a two pitches and the over all difficulty of a climb.

If you do fat city in A-3, you are climbing hard. I don't know what you are going to find to go to the pin, I don't even know if it is possible.

If you climb fat city in three hours, you are climbing hard. If you climb fat city in six hours you climb hard moves, but you are weaker than the one who climb it in three hours.

Sport climber like to do hard moves, come back after to show to every body that he is good...indeed some are very strong and you find them in competition ordinarly. One guy work a route for three month before he free all the pitches. So, for his first ascent he took 2160 hours!!! He claim after that he do the route in 9 hours because after he memorize all the moves, place the pro, he was able to do a fixe programation of the climb, like a dance in a competition. He his a climber for hard difficulty...I won't say a hard climber for the overall difficulty.

So, next time you choose a trad route. Look at the rating time and try to be as close as you can to it with your partner. If you choose a sport route, go to cathedral and do hangdogging. People will admire you, but???

Your entire argument is pointless.

Told you that at the start!

And what of the trad routes that took as long or longer than the hard sport routes to either free or establish? Stannard spent 40 weekends working to free Foops. Supercrack was originally called Wunsch Upon a Climb, due to the number of days Steve Wunsch worked the route. Look at the months of effort Steve Burke put in to freeing The Nose.

I never say that it is good or bad to work a route...

I said that it is not in the trad mentality. Those route was climb in aid with the rating of NCCS.

I never say that it is good or bad to work a route...

I said that it is not in the trad mentality. Those route was climb in aid with the rating of NCCS.

The trad mentality (at least in the UK where I come from and most of Europe) includes practicing the route on a top rope, cleaning on abseil, practicing gear placements, using pitons (and the occasional bolt), aid, mats and just about anything else you can think of.

And what is the definition of trad, the definition of sport???

And what is the definition of trad, the definition of sport???

You already said that it is different because you place a H!!!

...Look at the months of effort Steve Burke put in to freeing The Nose.

Your entire argument is pointless.

Scott Burke. And yes, I agree that Jacques is trying to argue something that makes no sense.

The H is added to a trad graded route to indicate the first ascent was done using sport-climbing attitudes and methods even though the route itself is protected using leader placed protection. A subsequent ascent without working the route would give a new trad grade without the H. This is a modern idea and older routes just appear in the guide with no indication as to whether working them was the normal or original method. [..]
How you achieve either is entirely up to you and the commitment is the same, just concentrates on different aspects.

The important point is that some people want to make climbing and olympic sport and it is not every body who had time to train for olympic.

Tie-in properly and clip into something every now and then which keeps you off the ground, climbing´s that simple,[..] The commitment doesn´t change with the genre, only the person. That´s why a "commitment" grade is about as stupid an idea as it gets.

The commitment rating is not a good term to describe the overall difficulty of the climb. It is not a synonyme and, as trad, it have a conotation to discourage people to climb, You committ a crime, it is old style of climbing, etc...

The over all difficulty of the climb is more valuable. Route finding: on a sport route, you follow the white hold...it is easy, but when you have to decide between left and right, between a 5.9 and a run out in 5.11 and a 5.9 with good protection...the idea of overall difficulty is understandable.

Longer of the route: six pitch of an hour and six pitch who take you nine hours will change a lot of think for a climber. One most bring a head lamp to be safe and there is also the fatigue. After nine hours at 50 degree, it is colder than after six. Difficulty to place protection: if you have to place three rp"s thread together and do a blind move after, it will take more time to do the move and place the pro than if you have to put a cam into a large crack. etc.

So, you have a false interpretation of the overall difficulty of a climb. The route finding change with the route you climb, not with the climber.

It is to avoid that people forget about the danger that we have to make a clear distinction between trad and sport.

So you´re saying the NCCS number tells me how long it will take to climb the route, how difficult the route finding is, how cold it is, whether I need to carry a head torch, how hard it is to get 3 RP´s in, that there are blind moves and how dangerous the route is? Dream on.