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monardo


Sep 30, 2014, 1:43 PM
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Anchor advice
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Hello

I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that). For a couple of times I set-up anchor and practiced jumaring and rapping off the cliff.

Here is how I set-up my line, with a minimum (none) equipment.


The two anchor points are two strong trees (even one would be enough). The angle between anchors is about 30-50 deg. and line between two trees is freely slacking.

Is the setup/knots/etc. correct?


JimTitt


Sep 30, 2014, 2:32 PM
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Learn to wrap around the tree once before tying the knots. Learn to tie bowlines, youīll save hours of your life otherwise wasted threading 8īs.


monardo


Sep 30, 2014, 9:03 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Anchor advice [In reply to]
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Thanks for reply.

What is the benefit of wrapping around the tree?

As for bowline, I do know how to tie it, I just prefer figure 8.


marc801


Oct 1, 2014, 9:14 AM
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For dog's sake buy some biners and webbing.


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Oct 1, 2014, 9:42 AM
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monardo wrote:
Hello

I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that). For a couple of times I set-up anchor and practiced jumaring and rapping off the cliff.

Here is how I set-up my line, with a minimum (none) equipment.


The two anchor points are two strong trees (even one would be enough). The angle between anchors is about 30-50 deg. and line between two trees is freely slacking.

Is the setup/knots/etc. correct?

It's a sound and solid set up. But as others have replied, it seems overly complicated for the application. Are you using a BFT (Big F%#ing Tree)? If it is thigh sized or bigger you really are okay just using only one tree. If anything, you can get away with a tension-less knot and a bowline or fig eight to secure the end. Much easier to untie than a weighted fig eight. A bowline with several wraps around a tree would work too. I'd be curious to see an actual picture of the set up you have so eloquently provided in use. I hope you have chafing gear/padding around the trees you use, so you don't end up contributing to the death of the trees.

FWIW, you and majid should hook up for future posts, he has some really awesome boulder/climber/tree graphics too.


(This post was edited by epoch on Oct 1, 2014, 9:43 AM)


dagibbs


Oct 1, 2014, 10:14 AM
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monardo wrote:
Hello

I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that). For a couple of times I set-up anchor and practiced jumaring and rapping off the cliff.

Here is how I set-up my line, with a minimum (none) equipment.


The two anchor points are two strong trees (even one would be enough). The angle between anchors is about 30-50 deg. and line between two trees is freely slacking.

Is the setup/knots/etc. correct?

This is completely safe, and yet almost completely impractical in a climbing situation. (Ok, there might be a couple esoteric situations where this makes sense, but they are not something a "new climber" should be involved with. For example, fixing a rope part way up a big wall to descend, then re-ascend the next day to the previous high point. Maybe. Or maybe for rescue work. But in those cases you'll always have gear for doing this, not just rope.)

Why is it impractical?

Almost always when one is going to rappel while climbing, it is to descend after climbing something. In these cases, you want to get your rope back -- to pull it down to yourself -- after the rappel. Obviously you can't do that with this setup. I guess for an emergency, longer than 1/2 rope length, but just less than full-rope length emergency escape, abandon the rope, rappel this could work.

You wouldn't use this for a top-rope anchor. You wouldn't use this for a multi-pitch anchor.


JimTitt


Oct 1, 2014, 10:18 AM
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monardo wrote:
Thanks for reply.

What is the benefit of wrapping around the tree?

As for bowline, I do know how to tie it, I just prefer figure 8.

Wrapping reduces the chance of the rope moving up or down the tree to an unfavourable position, thatīs something those who use stakes or thin bendy trees worry about. It also stops the rope sliding around the tree which is nicer to the tree.
Itīs still general practice to use something cheap and replaceable and low-stretch for the anchoring part as it saves wearing out an expensive climbing rope and allows for a more stable anchor position and reduced chafe over the edge.
You (probably) wonīt die with your setup but thereīs reasons why it wouldnīt be the first choice for most of us.


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 2:19 AM
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Thank you for all the replies.

I agree it is impractical for majority of the cases, but in my scenario it was very useful and most importantly safe (as you all confirm).


Partner cracklover


Oct 2, 2014, 7:19 AM
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monardo wrote:
Hello

I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that). For a couple of times I set-up anchor and practiced jumaring and rapping off the cliff.

Here is how I set-up my line, with a minimum (none) equipment.


The two anchor points are two strong trees (even one would be enough). The angle between anchors is about 30-50 deg. and line between two trees is freely slacking.

Is the setup/knots/etc. correct?

First of all, let me answer a question you didn't ask: "Is it safe?" The answer to that would be "yes".

Now to the question you did ask: "Is it correct?"

"Correct" is a strange word. I guess the answer to your question is "no" - it's not correct. To the degree that there is ever a "correct" solution, that solution is the most efficient and effective safe solution to a given climbing problem.

What is the problem for which this is the most effective and efficient safe solution? It seems unlikely think there is one.

How about this - tell us the problem you're trying to solve, and we can probably give you a number of more "correct" solutions, and explain why they are better than the one you chose. Or, perhaps we can verify that, for the obscure problem you're trying to solve, you truly have come up with a novel and "correct" solution.

GO


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 7:46 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Anchor advice [In reply to]
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That is correct, the question I meant was whether it was safe.

Since you insist, here is the scenario where this was practical. There is a 30 meter cliff close to place where I live. You can walk both to the top and the bottom of the rock. Couple of times my friends and I went to the place and we had only rope, harness, ATC device and couple of carabiners and ascenders.

We walked to the top, fixed the rope as in the picture and rappelled down. After that we would either walk up and rappel again or would ascend the rope using Jumars. At the end of the day we untied the rope and went home.

Well... I know what you are thinking, but I said in the very beginning of my post:

"I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that)"

So, yes, there are many other optimal ways to make anchors, but with the gear we had during those times it was not possible. The fact that I "invented" the set-up on the fly made me wonder if it was safe.

That's it.


marc801


Oct 2, 2014, 7:59 AM
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monardo wrote:
Since you insist, here is the scenario where this was practical.
I can't think of any situation, including yours, where 3 consecutive follow-through figure 8's are even remotely practical.

monardo wrote:
So, yes, there are many other optimal ways to make anchors, but with the gear we had during those times it was not possible.
That's not correct, but you don't know enough yet to realize that, so.....

monardo wrote:
The fact that I "invented" the set-up on the fly made me wonder if it was safe.
...stop inventing stuff, get a book on climbing anchors, get some gear, get a mentor (or at least take a class).

Basically, if you feel the need to ask on a climbing forum if something you did was safe *after having used your invented setup*, then you are simply not ready to be building anchors on your own.


Partner cracklover


Oct 2, 2014, 8:43 AM
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monardo wrote:
That is correct, the question I meant was whether it was safe.

Since you insist, here is the scenario where this was practical. There is a 30 meter cliff close to place where I live. You can walk both to the top and the bottom of the rock. Couple of times my friends and I went to the place and we had only rope, harness, ATC device and couple of carabiners and ascenders.

We walked to the top, fixed the rope as in the picture and rappelled down. After that we would either walk up and rappel again or would ascend the rope using Jumars. At the end of the day we untied the rope and went home.

Well... I know what you are thinking, but I said in the very beginning of my post:

"I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that)"

So, yes, there are many other optimal ways to make anchors, but with the gear we had during those times it was not possible. The fact that I "invented" the set-up on the fly made me wonder if it was safe.

That's it.

Don't get all defensive on my account. I'm simply trying to clarify the point.

But to be honest, from your tone, I get the impression that you're actually not interested in a discussion on best practices. You just want to know if you could've died on your setup.

If that's so, I won't bother taking the time to respond about what the best method might've been.

Cheers,

GO


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 8:44 AM
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marc801 wrote:
I can't think of any situation, including yours, where 3 consecutive follow-through figure 8's are even remotely practical.

Sure, but then tell me why not.

marc801 wrote:
That's not correct, but you don't know enough yet to realize that, so.....

So tell me what would be another option.


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 9:25 AM
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cracklover wrote:

Don't get all defensive on my account. I'm simply trying to clarify the point.

But to be honest, from your tone, I get the impression that you're actually not interested in a discussion on best practices. You just want to know if you could've died on your setup.

If that's so, I won't bother taking the time to respond about what the best method might've been.

Cheers,

GO

I am sorry if my tone sounded defensive or in any way rude. English is not my native language (not even second language), so I had no intention of being offensive or aggressive.

On the other hand, indeed, my primary question was if I could die with my set-up.

But...

That does not mean I am not interested in best practices, so please explain...

In addition, because I want to understand in depth the points (good points) you all are making I don't want to take any opinion just for granted, but want to understand the logic. So far from all posts I gathered the following points:

1. The setup is safe, but...
2. It is impractical to use for 99.9% of situations
3. Hard/impractical/unnecessary to tie so many figure 8s
4. Hard to untie loaded figure 8s
5. Wears the expensive rope

So far only real argument is the last one, as I have used it and it was pretty easy to tie (even enjoyed the process) and was easy to untie.

Please believe me I am not defending this set-up and maybe/probably will never use it again, I just want to understand.


mojomonkey


Oct 2, 2014, 10:01 AM
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monardo wrote:
5. Wears the expensive rope

A brief follow up on this (and Jim Titt's comments) to make sure you actually understand. You did not specify what sort of rope you were using (static or dynamic), and what the cliff edge was like. You could have a ridiculously strong anchor, but end up cutting your rope jumaring (or swinging / bouncing on rappel). A static rope will take more abuse, but if the edge is sharp you should pad it, or avoid loading a rope or webbing over it.

A more general point is that there may be things you are unaware of that should be considered, and those of us not there cannot fully guess all the things you should have considered to know if you were safe or lucky. There are a number of resources (e.g. books, classes) that will give you a good introduction on those things.


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 10:23 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
monardo wrote:
5. Wears the expensive rope

A brief follow up on this (and Jim Titt's comments) to make sure you actually understand. You did not specify what sort of rope you were using (static or dynamic), and what the cliff edge was like. You could have a ridiculously strong anchor, but end up cutting your rope jumaring (or swinging / bouncing on rappel). A static rope will take more abuse, but if the edge is sharp you should pad it, or avoid loading a rope or webbing over it.

A more general point is that there may be things you are unaware of that should be considered, and those of us not there cannot fully guess all the things you should have considered to know if you were safe or lucky. There are a number of resources (e.g. books, classes) that will give you a good introduction on those things.

Very valid questions.

We used static 10.5 mm rope.
The rope was indeed hanging over the edge and we used a thick carpet to protect the rope.


rocknice2


Oct 2, 2014, 11:26 AM
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If as you say both trees are stout and you just wanted backup. You're using a 10.5 static with a padded rock edge, then I would do the following.

Just make a big loop around both trees and tie a follow trough fig8.
Look at the Triangle in this photo and substitute a knot for the carabiner. It shows a sling anchor but just imagine its all rope with a knot where the biner is. AKA American Death Triangle, but it's totally safe for what you're doing.




Partner cracklover


Oct 2, 2014, 12:38 PM
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monardo wrote:
That is correct, the question I meant was whether it was safe.

Since you insist, here is the scenario where this was practical. There is a 30 meter cliff close to place where I live. You can walk both to the top and the bottom of the rock. Couple of times my friends and I went to the place and we had only rope, harness, ATC device and couple of carabiners and ascenders.

We walked to the top, fixed the rope as in the picture and rappelled down. After that we would either walk up and rappel again or would ascend the rope using Jumars. At the end of the day we untied the rope and went home.

Well... I know what you are thinking, but I said in the very beginning of my post:

"I am a new "climber" (if I can call myself that)"

So, yes, there are many other optimal ways to make anchors, but with the gear we had during those times it was not possible. The fact that I "invented" the set-up on the fly made me wonder if it was safe.

That's it.

OK, if it were me, I would bring a separate line so as not to wear my good rope over the edge. I would also bring a couple of slings for the trees.

But assuming all you have is the single rope, and no other slings or biners, and for some reason you want to do a single-line rappel...

I would probably do something similar to what you have, but in place of the fig-8s on each tree, I would simply clove hitch each tree. Much easier to adjust and get the lengths right if you misjudge something.

And no problem about your English - it seems better than that of most native speakers on this site!

GO


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Oct 2, 2014, 12:39 PM
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rocknice2 wrote:
If as you say both trees are stout and you just wanted backup. You're using a 10.5 static with a padded rock edge, then I would do the following.

Just make a big loop around both trees and tie a follow trough fig8.
Look at the Triangle in this photo and substitute a knot for the carabiner. It shows a sling anchor but just imagine its all rope with a knot where the biner is. AKA American Death Triangle, but it's totally safe for what you're doing.


That sounds like a terrible solution to me.

GO


monardo


Oct 2, 2014, 1:51 PM
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cracklover wrote:

OK, if it were me, I would bring a separate line so as not to wear my good rope over the edge. I would also bring a couple of slings for the trees.

Ok, on the tree side it is no doubt will save from wearing, but since I need to start rappelling from the ground on top I cannot have slings, etc. overhanging the edge, so it still would be rope (with protection), no?

cracklover wrote:

I would probably do something similar to what you have, but in place of the fig-8s on each tree, I would simply clove hitch each tree.

Also clear for two trees, but what would you use for third fig8, which equalizes the load (in my understanding)

cracklover wrote:

And no problem about your English - it seems better than that of most native speakers on this site!

Thanks

rocknice2 wrote:


In my imagination "My setup" is approximately the same as first picture (V shape), just without slings, isn't it? I know about American Death Triangle and although probably it would work, I am just not comfortable with it.


rocknice2


Oct 2, 2014, 2:16 PM
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cracklover wrote:
rocknice2 wrote:
If as you say both trees are stout and you just wanted backup. You're using a 10.5 static with a padded rock edge, then I would do the following.

Just make a big loop around both trees and tie a follow trough fig8.
Look at the Triangle in this photo and substitute a knot for the carabiner. It shows a sling anchor but just imagine its all rope with a knot where the biner is. AKA American Death Triangle, but it's totally safe for what you're doing.


That sounds like a terrible solution to me.

GO

Why? Plenty strong enough and he's using a pad against abrasion.

To the OP, nothing wrong with you're rigging, is very safe but it must have taken you a long time to tie all those knots.
Hey if you're OK with more power to you!


marc801


Oct 2, 2014, 4:19 PM
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monardo wrote:
Ok, on the tree side it is no doubt will save from wearing, but since I need to start rappelling from the ground on top I cannot have slings, etc. overhanging the edge,...
Why not? There are many established raps in climbing where the anchor or your attachment to the rope is below the edge (eg: a rappel tree that is on the edge of a ledge) where you start by sitting on the edge.... One of the standard descents at Seneca starts this way.


monardo


Oct 3, 2014, 4:53 AM
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marc801 wrote:
monardo wrote:
Ok, on the tree side it is no doubt will save from wearing, but since I need to start rappelling from the ground on top I cannot have slings, etc. overhanging the edge,...
Why not? There are many established raps in climbing where the anchor or your attachment to the rope is below the edge (eg: a rappel tree that is on the edge of a ledge) where you start by sitting on the edge.... One of the standard descents at Seneca starts this way.

I got interested. Is there an illustration of this somewhere?

What I imagined is that

1. You would make anchor overhanging the edge
2. Clip rope to anchor.
3. Clip rappel/belay device to harness and rope (probably with auto-block for safety)
4. Sit on a ledge, where you would have slack between your anchor and harness.
5. Climb down on a rock with your hands and feet and/or with a help of anchor webbing/slings
6. from the moment you tension your rope rappel down normal way.

Is that correct?
Probably bit more dangerous (meaning prone to mistakes) than standard way?!


marc801


Oct 3, 2014, 7:14 AM
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monardo wrote:
Is that correct?
Yes.

monardo wrote:
Probably bit more dangerous (meaning prone to mistakes) than standard way?!
No.


Partner j_ung


Oct 3, 2014, 8:47 AM
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monardo wrote:
marc801 wrote:
I can't think of any situation, including yours, where 3 consecutive follow-through figure 8's are even remotely practical.

Sure, but then tell me why not.

marc801 wrote:
That's not correct, but you don't know enough yet to realize that, so.....

So tell me what would be another option.

Somebody already mentioned it: bowlines. What you've done is plenty safe. But I bet you look like you're knitting an afghan when you build it. Tongue


(This post was edited by j_ung on Oct 3, 2014, 8:48 AM)

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