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jacques
Apr 13, 2015, 7:43 AM
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I was looking for how the learning process of trad can increase or decrease the danger of an accident. I made a distinction between some one who learn trad as climbing in second, doing aid climbing, climbing easy route as a leader and some one who repeat fall on bolt by trying harder and harder move and changing bolt for cam as he was an expert climber.
The phenomena is call priming: The terms positive and negative priming refer to when priming affects the speed of processing. A positive prime speeds up processing, while a negative prime lowers the speed to slower than un-primed levels.[8] Positive priming is caused by simply experiencing the stimulus,[9] while negative priming is caused by experiencing the stimulus, and then ignoring it.[8][10] Positive priming effects happen even if the prime is not consciously seen.[9] The effects of positive and negative priming are visible in event-related potential"
can some one can bring more information
(This post was edited by jacques on Apr 13, 2015, 8:18 PM)
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sbaclimber
Apr 13, 2015, 2:15 PM
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jacques wrote: The phenomena is call priming: The terms positive and negative priming refer to when priming affects the speed of processing. A positive prime speeds up processing, while a negative prime lowers the speed to slower than un-primed levels.[8] Positive priming is caused by simply experiencing the stimulus,[9] while negative priming is caused by experiencing the stimulus, and then ignoring it.[8][10] Positive priming effects happen even if the prime is not consciously seen.[9] The effects of positive and negative priming are visible in event-related potential"
Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...
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iknowfear
Apr 13, 2015, 6:29 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: jacques wrote: The phenomena is call priming: The terms positive and negative priming refer to when priming affects the speed of processing. A positive prime speeds up processing, while a negative prime lowers the speed to slower than un-primed levels.[8] Positive priming is caused by simply experiencing the stimulus,[9] while negative priming is caused by experiencing the stimulus, and then ignoring it.[8][10] Positive priming effects happen even if the prime is not consciously seen.[9] The effects of positive and negative priming are visible in event-related potential" Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...
just make sure not to google the phrase used in the Subject Line...
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mojomonkey
Apr 13, 2015, 6:40 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...
I feel like this could be the first post in most threads jacques starts.
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rocknice2
Apr 13, 2015, 7:28 PM
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iknowfear wrote: sbaclimber wrote: jacques wrote: The phenomena is call priming: The terms positive and negative priming refer to when priming affects the speed of processing. A positive prime speeds up processing, while a negative prime lowers the speed to slower than un-primed levels.[8] Positive priming is caused by simply experiencing the stimulus,[9] while negative priming is caused by experiencing the stimulus, and then ignoring it.[8][10] Positive priming effects happen even if the prime is not consciously seen.[9] The effects of positive and negative priming are visible in event-related potential" Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... just make sure not to google the phrase used in the Subject Line...
You're confusing it with rimming
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sbaclimber
Apr 13, 2015, 8:05 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: iknowfear wrote: sbaclimber wrote: jacques wrote: The phenomena is call priming: The terms positive and negative priming refer to when priming affects the speed of processing. A positive prime speeds up processing, while a negative prime lowers the speed to slower than un-primed levels.[8] Positive priming is caused by simply experiencing the stimulus,[9] while negative priming is caused by experiencing the stimulus, and then ignoring it.[8][10] Positive priming effects happen even if the prime is not consciously seen.[9] The effects of positive and negative priming are visible in event-related potential" Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about... just make sure not to google the phrase used in the Subject Line... You're confusing it with rimming 
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jacques
Apr 13, 2015, 8:37 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...
Here a reference of what it could be. Unfortunately, it is not related to climbing, but it could be a very interesting subject for graduate student: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/emo/9/6/847/.
We saw some accident where the climbe don't place any gear because he think that he can do it because he had done it before on top rope. Those person ignore the danger and focus on there goal....the bolt before the crux. Often they don't fall and there is no consequencies, but often accident happen. People talk about the qwuality of the rock humidity of the air or weather.
I went climbing sunday and my feet slep a couple of time. I am at the begining of the season and I just had the feeling that I most do some thing in case my feet sleep when I will be leading. I thing that as I had hard time to be stable on my feet this first time, I will be more conscious of the danger and climb safer.
If it is a forum of discussion, it could be interesting if some people can find relate article or finding to understand what is priming.
(This post was edited by jacques on Apr 13, 2015, 11:56 PM)
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jacques
Apr 13, 2015, 11:59 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: Please provide a reference! Out of context, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about...
Here an other definition:What Is Priming?
Priming is a nonconscious form of human memory concerned with perceptual identification of words and objects. It refers to activating particular representations or associations in memory just before carrying out an action or task. For example, a person who sees the word "yellow" will be slightly faster to recognize the word "banana." This happens because yellow and banana are closely associated in memory. Additionally, priming can also refer to a technique in psychology used to train a person's memory in both positive and negative ways.
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sbaclimber
Apr 14, 2015, 10:34 AM
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Thanks for the reference.
Wikipedia turned out to be quite helpful to me to understand as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/...ing_%28psychology%29
I can now definitely understand your interest in a possible connection.
Unfortunately, other than finding it interesting, I can't offer any expertice.
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jacques
Apr 14, 2015, 7:22 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: Unfortunately, other than finding it interesting, I can't offer any expertise
I am interested by that part of thenegative priming: "The episodic retrieval model hypothesizes that ignored items are flagged 'do-not-respond' by the brain"
As you climb in a gym, your hands get pump. In a gym, you are motivate to say "do-not-respond to the pain in your arm, just try to do one more moves.
so you ignore the signal that you get pump and that you are ready to fall.
if you climb in trad, you will have to place a protection. when your hands will get pump, you will try to ignore the signal as previously learn in the gym. You will try to place a pro, which can be very hard as you are getting more and more pump. The fall, in that situation, can be very dangerous. Particularly when the climber place no or bad protection.
So we have an example of a negative priming that can leas to a leader fall in trad climbing.
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marc801
Apr 15, 2015, 3:01 PM
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jacques wrote: sbaclimber wrote: Unfortunately, other than finding it interesting, I can't offer any expertise I am interested by that part of thenegative priming: "The episodic retrieval model hypothesizes that ignored items are flagged 'do-not-respond' by the brain" As you climb in a gym, your hands get pump. In a gym, you are motivate to say "do-not-respond to the pain in your arm, just try to do one more moves. so you ignore the signal that you get pump and that you are ready to fall. if you climb in trad, you will have to place a protection. when your hands will get pump, you will try to ignore the signal as previously learn in the gym. You will try to place a pro, which can be very hard as you are getting more and more pump. The fall, in that situation, can be very dangerous. Particularly when the climber place no or bad protection. So we have an example of a negative priming that can leas to a leader fall in trad climbing.
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viciado
Apr 17, 2015, 8:29 AM
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Yes, Jacques is stuck on an idea, but he may have touched on something practical here... even if it isn't anything really new. (additionally, the abstract he posted a link to refers to experiments related to modifying physiological responses to emotions... but the idea of priming still may be helpful)
While the jargon makes it all sound new and technical, it appears to me that priming is nothing more than a term that represents the idea that recent experiences contribute to establishing autonomous/unconscious mental filters. I think the main point is to avoid running on auto-pilot. The question is how do we do that while avoiding information overload?
While it is probably good to be aware of the possible issues of "negative priming," I am more interested in the "positive priming" aspect in relation to preparing for a climb. How and to what extent might positive priming of my mental filters help reduce pilot error or tunnel vision?
I think many climbers already do this through gear checks, mental imaging and other pre-climb activities, but with the obvious rise in the number of serious accidents in recent years (involving both experienced and n00b climbers), I wonder if priming might offer a way to help us keep our "head in the game" and avoid such accidents.
(This post was edited by viciado on Apr 17, 2015, 8:34 AM)
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jacques
Apr 22, 2015, 6:36 AM
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viciado wrote: Yes, Jacques is stuck on an idea, but he may have touched on something practical here... even if it isn't anything really new. (additionally, the abstract he posted a link to refers to experiments related to modifying physiological responses to emotions... but the idea of priming still may be helpful)[..] I am more interested in the "positive priming" aspect in relation to preparing for a climb. How and to what extent might positive priming of my mental filters help reduce pilot error or tunnel vision?[..] I wonder if priming might offer a way to help us keep our "head in the game" and avoid such accidents.
it is very positive and gave some idea that we can discuss seriously. although the term are more technical, many good climber know what priming is.
I am interested in differences of priming in relation to what we want to do. If I want to climb as if climbing is a complex hike, i will be interested to be ready for what i don't expect. If I climb to perform like an expert, I will be interest on way to make a move more rapidly, with a perfect execution.
Priming in one ethic will be to repeat a move or a route many time to have it perfectly and in the othe ethic, it will be to be place in different situation that you don't know the solution and have to find it as you climb.
I think that you can't workout both at the same time and that you have to make a choice. one priming in sport is good for sport and not for trad...and can be dangerous
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viciado
Apr 22, 2015, 4:21 PM
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Short Answer:
You might be able to help prepare yourself mentally with word lists associated with the goal you have in mind, but it is counterproductive to attempt to prime for different goals at the same time since you would be creating competing demands for the same mental resources.
For a sport climb, maybe cues in the form of a word list:
onsight, focus, precision, effort, maximum, breathe, explode, achieve, technique, tenacious, success
For a technical alpine ascent:
prepared, team, vision, persistence, landscape, inventive, patience, planning, ground breaking
Long Answer with a couple references:
So, is the basic question: “How do people resolve whether to pursue and to invest effort or recruit resources to attain a given behavioral goal without involvement of conscious will?” (Aarts et al, 2008)?
Studies indicate that it is possible to prime automatic goal pursuit (AGP) to be compatible with elected goal pursuit (EGP). The advantage in this is the common use of mental resources that would otherwise be divided between the differing pursuits of automatic and elected goals (with an apparent priority given to the AGP) resulting in reduced performance (slower reaction/decision time in the studies).
While the studies indicate that automatic goals are typically somewhat rigid, it is clear that they are flexible enough to be molded either intentionally or inadvertently. This suggests that it is prudent to seek to prime our subconscious goal selection to be in line with our conscious goal pursuit.
Four different studies by two teams (Aarts et al 2008, Hassin et al 2007) focused on using word lists as cues (which is the common application we often experience in marketing and sales.). On a personal note, I would think that any word list would be somewhat subjective especially in relation to culture. In any case, the studies suggest that it may be possible to select a list of words which you associate with performance which you would read or recite a few times before a climb. A third team presented additional information in 2010 that may be helpful (Custers and Aarts 2010).
My suggested ideas for different lists are above at the beginning of the post.
For me, the bottom line is that while priming appears to offer the possibility of adjusting your focus/attitude/mindset in your favor for higher performance, it is not going to confer abilities, ideas or attitudes that you do not already posses. Nor are you likely to choose to do something that you did not really want to do in the first place. None of the study subjects exhibited new behaviors nor did they express attitudes or ideas with which they were unfamiliar. Priming was directly correlated to the exhibition of different rates of response to specific stimuli in controlled situations.
A few questions I am pondering (not losing sleep over it):
1) Do we have enough control over variables in the typical climbing environment for priming to be effective or appropriate? In other words, could I just be creating another form of auto-pilot?
2) What might be the result of inappropriate priming… is there a risk of reduced reaction time at a crucial moment? What if I mix up my Alpine list with my Sport project list… will I climb like I’m wearing crampons?
3) The tests did not explore the effects of continued use of a priming list over time. Is there a point at which the word list will cease to function as a priming agent (too familiar?). Would I have to come up with a new list every time?
4) Is there a point at which priming is no longer necessary in a given circumstance or venue?
5) To what extent does my own participation in the production of the priming agent “taint” it?
Finally, Custer and Aarts (2010) discovered that while the conscious decision to move a given body part clearly preceded actual movement, the mental processes for that movement were already in motion prior to the decision. The priming agent in the experiment was the simple direction given to the subject to move a finger at any time they desired. Thus the brain was “primed” for that body part to move and the processes activated well before it was consciously decided to move it. This has fairly obvious implications for mental imaging of the moves or sequences of a project. By imagining yourself completing the moves, you not only show yourself that it is possible, but you activate the processes which guide the muscles so that they are in a state of readiness. It is well beyond the scope of the referred investigations to examine how engrams are related to AGP versus EGP , but I would think that the engrams that you develop in regular training would enhance AGP when primed by the mental imaging.
References:
Aarts, Custers, Veltkamp (2008), Goal priming and the affective-motivational route to non-conscious goal pursuit, Ultrech University
Custers, Aarts (2010), The Unconscious Will: How the Pusuit of Goals Operates Outside of Conscious Awareness.
Hassin, Bargh, Zimmerman (2007?), On the Flexible Nature of Automatic Goal Pursuit, Yale University.
(edited to fix paragraphs after pasting from Word)
(This post was edited by viciado on Apr 22, 2015, 4:28 PM)
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jacques
Apr 23, 2015, 6:25 AM
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viciado wrote: Short Answer: You might be able to help prepare yourself mentally with word lists associated with the goal you have in mind,
experimental plan: it is easier in a research to work with words list because any body can reproduce the experiment and find the same conclusion.
an experimental plan in climbing is more complex and need a strong knowledge of climbing.
you can prime a climber to: 1- see the danger, 2- decide of a number of technique, 3- decide to climb or to bail
you can also prime a climber to: 1- clip a bolt so there is no danger; 2- associate a type of hold to a movement so you don't have to know the technique, but just anticipate the move in association with a repetition of the move and 3- don't have to decide if there is a danger or not.
Actually, sport climber do the second, but it is hard to study in the field because each climber are different and the priming effect in climbing last for a longer time than a list. In fact each person have a pattern of reaction under stress and it is hard to evaluate in a graduate study.
what i call sport climbing accident is associate with the second type of priming
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viciado
Apr 24, 2015, 9:04 AM
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Jacques,
Unconscious disregard for specific types of danger is certainly developed in the practice of different disciplines of climbing and is likely a strong factor in the accident to which you refer. Your point that transitioning between disciplines deserves more attention than many give it is well made. However, your concerns regarding negative priming do not appear to be well founded given the overwhelming evidence of research since the late 1980's.
Your culprit is HABIT (IMHO). I would suggest reading Henk Aarts The Automatic Activation of Goal-Directed Behaviour: The Case of Travel Habit, Journal of Environmental Psychology 03/2000.
Habits, as we all know, are hard to change. But (while not the actual focus of the study) Banca et al indicate that conscious control CAN be exerted by a healthy individual to successfully re-orient mental processes to be more fully compatible with a goal oriented activity. (Banca, Paula, Imbalance in habitual versus goal directed neural systems during symptom provocation in obsessive-compulsive disorder, Cambridge University, 01/2015, source: PubMed.)
While priming MAY be a option that some could use to help bring adequate and appropriate focus to a current activity, it can only be used to bolster existing attitudes and skills, not create them. Additionally, it appears that priming is most effective when experienced immediately before the given activity.
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jacques
Apr 27, 2015, 1:18 AM
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viciado wrote: Jacques, Unconscious disregard for specific types of danger is certainly developed in the practice of different disciplines of climbing and is likely a strong factor in the accident to which you refer. Your point that transitioning between disciplines deserves more attention than many give it is well made.
let begin by understand transitioning between disciplines. In your phrase you admit that there is more than one discipline in climbing.
I begin to talk about safety and the difference between sport and trad after two accident. Thew first one was an ice climbing accident where the guy pass true the ice in the fall and the second was a climber who clip a cam as he clip a bolt in a gym...without knowing if his cam was good.
how many sport climber never did aid climbing and trust cam and stopper? they never see what a bad protection is. If they don't fall, they probably never know it too. and we don't fall so often in trad.
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viciado
Apr 27, 2015, 9:57 AM
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I think that we can take it as given that there are different disciplines in climbing. If this is what you mean by "admit," great. Very few would argue otherwise.
As for transitioning between disciplines, many general processes will carry over between disciplines, but several subsets of more refined motor and/or mental processes will obviously be different.
Several people on this forum have made such observations and the Accident and Injury forum is full of commentary that points to what I will summarize as two major points:
1) Learn your craft - There are many accounts of accidents that are the result of inadequate understanding of the risk management systems. I do not believe this is directly related to priming.
2) Pay attention - The greater concern for me is in this area as records of both inexperienced and veterans getting hurt due to lack of concentration are numerous.
Since you do not seem to prefer my suggestions regarding positive priming up-thread, how do you see priming as being potentially beneficial or detrimental in these two areas? Feel free to write in French for the sake of clarity... we can use google translate too.
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jacques
Apr 27, 2015, 8:04 PM
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viciado wrote: I think that we can take it as given that there are different disciplines in climbing. If this is what you mean by "admit," great. Very few would argue otherwise. As for transitioning between disciplines, many general processes will carry over between disciplines, but several subsets of more refined motor and/or mental processes will obviously be different.
So we have, in that forum more than two disciplines, aid /sport climbing is one of these. We can take each discipline and describe the technique and skill that they need to execute the discipline.
Are we going to talk about transition between aid and sport??? No the distinction is too big. But between sport and trad it is feasible. that doesn't mean that it is the good thing to do.
positive priming in sport can be negative and trad and positive priming in trad can be negative in sport. So, one most know the distinction to avoid dangerous situation. Saying that trad is the next step after sport is dangerous in itself. As priming can became an habit that people do regularly...the danger is high that at the unconscious level, the climber do a sport move in a dangerous trad place. There was two accient last fall one women died in the gunks and one other. They do the move previously and thing that they can red point it as they do in sport, without protection. the two of them fall
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viciado
Apr 28, 2015, 1:01 PM
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Jacques,
I understand you to be saying that a Sport mentality is not necessarily a healthy approach for Trad/Classic climbing and vice versa in spite of shared processes.
Is that accurate?
If so: What do you propose as a solution that would avoid the results of negative priming if one chooses to transition between the two disciplines.
- viciado
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jacques
Apr 28, 2015, 10:53 PM
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viciado wrote: Jacques, I understand you to be saying that a Sport mentality is not necessarily a healthy approach for Trad/Classic climbing and vice versa in spite of shared processes.
I like a clear distinction between the two sport. A run of 100 meter in 9 seconde and a marathon is not the same sport even if they shared the same process.
The kind of muscle solicitate in both ethic are different, the way to protect our selves are different the way to train for each style are different, the goal are different as the summit is not the only reason to climb.
If you look at the description of trad actually (Love to plug protection? Talk to other climbers specifically interested in traditional climbing.) it is not enough information to understand the distinction. many people think that ounce you place a bunch of pro at the bottom of the cliff, you are an expert, rope management is lot more conlex when the pro can pull out.
Finally, those who really want to do competition will know that trad is not for competition. The goal is not to prove that you can stupidly solo the bottom of a cliff to make a glorious 5.11 like the women at the gunks, but the goal is also to place a perfect line of protection and a team with your partner. (note boulder is more suit for competition and some sport climber like it too)
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viciado
Apr 29, 2015, 9:46 AM
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For the purposes of priming, the questions are relatively simple: 1) What mindset is most conducive to ____ activity? and 2) How can I consciously influence that mindset?
The type of change and level of control you are looking for is not accessible by priming and is likely only available through something like Vulcan Mind Control. In other words, it's not going to happen in the existing climbing community. The best you can do is to learn the craft well, pay attention to what you are doing and encourage others by word and example to do the same.
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jacques
Apr 30, 2015, 12:38 PM
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viciado wrote: For the purposes of priming, the questions are relatively simple: 1) What mindset is most conducive to ____ activity? and 2) How can I consciously influence that mindset? The type of change and level of control you are looking for [...] it's not going to happen in the existing climbing community. The best you can do is to learn the craft well, pay attention to what you are doing and encourage others by word and example to do the same.
I think that it is where leadership is important and also where people who understand climbing can make a difference. As you talk about mindset, we can try to understand which kind of what a leader is. In trad a leader is some one who keep the party together and bring people safely back home after a challenging day. in sport, a leader is more some one who do a new kind of move or sequence that other people can try after. So, we can understand that the leadership for sport is a different mindset than in trad.
As people know about leadership, they will follow both type of leader as they prefer sport and trad. Actually, sport climber eliminate trad leadership because it is not as much visible. My leader is a 5.11 onsight climber, but today he follow me in easier route. But because of his leadership, I climb serenity crack and other hard route.
I think that we most do a brain storming to get all small and big difference, sort it after and make the result accessible for the climbing community.
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