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kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 10:37 AM
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* "word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics" nice description of what sport climbers did to the definition of a redpoint. Weak ego's that couldn't deal with calling it a pinkpoint because it threatened their masculinity.*

Wow. So people who climb on fixed -oh, sorry, "pre-hung"- draws have weak egos and are limp-wristed to boot. Somehow that description doesn't jibe with the image I have of Sharma, Caldwell, Huber et al. I guess they're all fags compared to you, though, the heroic draw-placer, who makes the rest of the sport climbing world look like fruitcakes with your awesome quickdraw-placing skills.


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 11:03 AM
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* Nice try, the reason people use rapides is so that gumbies won't steal them. If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

No. It's because hardware-store stuff is cheaper to leave as fixed than biners, and because cleaning draws on steep routes in a pain in the ass. Gumbies with a wrench, or a knife to cut the draw runner, can (and do) still steal them.

*I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didnít. But that is as far as I am willing to go.*

*If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

*In some senses climbing with pre-placed draws is cheating yourself of the most the route has to offer*

*My hardest sport route send was a pinkpoint. My hardest on-sight was putting the draws in.*

Everything you've said so far is so easy to refute, so impossible to make sense out of, so self-contradictory and so full of obfuscation, that I'm surprised you keep going. You sound like Ari Fleischer at an Iraq press conference. At least he had the brains to realize he could'nt win and was making a total ass out of himself, and quit. Now it's your turn.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 2:42 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
The point is that I care and I don't like it when people say there is no difference because there is a difference.
It is only people that have ego problems that say that there is not a difficulty difference between doing a route with the draws in and with the draws not in. What you choose to call it does not matter to me.

Alpmclmbr1: Do you find the above two statements you made a little conflicting???

Not at all.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 2:47 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
My first pair of shoes were EB's, I traded them 2 months later for a pair of Pa's?? a while later I switched to fires and never looked back. Other then that I don't understand your argument. I don't equate advances in equipment to a degradation of style. I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didnít. But that is as far as I am willing to go.

You said I seven times in the above quote! Climb anyway you want, just don't tell the rest of us what is right or wrong! Your opinion and your climbing style is important to you and maybe a few other people. Are you having fun when you climb? Are you meeting nice people when you go climbing? Do you feel good after a day of climbing? These are the things you really should ask yourself, not if someone pinkpoint or redpointed a route.

I have a lot of fun climbing. For the tenth time I have a problem with people that say there is no difference between doing a route with the draws in and without. That is a denial of physical reality. What anybody else chooses to call each method doesn't matter to me.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 2:51 PM
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* "word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics" nice description of what sport climbers did to the definition of a redpoint. Weak ego's that couldn't deal with calling it a pinkpoint because it threatened their masculinity.*

Wow. So people who climb on fixed -oh, sorry, "pre-hung"- draws have weak egos and are limp-wristed to boot. Somehow that description doesn't jibe with the image I have of Sharma, Caldwell, Huber et al. I guess they're all fags compared to you, though, the heroic draw-placer, who makes the rest of the sport climbing world look like fruitcakes with your awesome quickdraw-placing skills.

Kalcario,
Would you please stop trying to say I said something I didn't.
To me there is a difference between a pinkpoint and a redpoint. so I will continue to use the I terms started with instead of making up new ones.

Why did sportclimbers switch from calling it a pinkpoint to calling it a redpoint? When I first started sport climbing it was a pinkpoint and I see no reason to change. The only reason I can see is that they were not comfortable with the word pink.

I have no problem with people climbing on pre-placed draws, as I said I often do.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 2:55 PM
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* Nice try, the reason people use rapides is so that gumbies won't steal them. If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

No. It's because hardware-store stuff is cheaper to leave as fixed than biners, and because cleaning draws on steep routes in a pain in the ass. Gumbies with a wrench, or a knife to cut the draw runner, can (and do) still steal them.

*I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didnít. But that is as far as I am willing to go.*

*If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

*In some senses climbing with pre-placed draws is cheating yourself of the most the route has to offer*

*My hardest sport route send was a pinkpoint. My hardest on-sight was putting the draws in.*

Everything you've said so far is so easy to refute, so impossible to make sense out of, so self-contradictory and so full of obfuscation, that I'm surprised you keep going. You sound like Ari Fleischer at an Iraq press conference. At least he had the brains to realize he could'nt win and was making a total ass out of himself, and quit. Now it's your turn.

So refute it.

You agree that a sport rating includes the pump factor and yet you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor. Sorry, but that is stupid. Are you really saying that you deny this?


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 3:09 PM
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*So refute it.
You agree that a sport rating includes the pump factor and yet you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor. Sorry, but that is stupid. Are you really saying that you deny this?*

The sport rating includes the pump factor OF DOING AND LINKING THE MOVES! NOT THE CLIPS! NOT HANGING THE DRAWS! JESUS CHRIST! Are you really this fukking dense?!? I can't believe this! You could increase the pump factor a thousand ways! It could be too hot! Too cold! Your belayer could gank you for slack on the clips! ANYTHING! But that's not how routes are graded! YOU ARE WRONG! LET IT GO!


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 3:19 PM
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This whole thread is a joke. For those of us who climb in reality (not just think about climbing behind a computer screen), the distinction between red and pink point has long been dropped.

Preplaced protection is exactly that. Whether or not a draw is on the bolt or not, the protection is preplaced therefore, arguing about a pink or red point is mute.

All lead ascents that start at the bottom of a sport route and only have at max 2 bolts stick clipped (assuming there are more than 2 bolts on the route :lol: ) that clip the rope through the preplaced protection the rest on the way up without placing any body weight on the rope and end in clipping the anchors is a successful redpoint.

This is not an opinion, this is fact as is represented by thousands of ascents every year at every sport crag across the world

Those who are arguing in favor of pink pointing in terms of sport climbing need to get outside and do some climbing. Your definitions need to be updated to the standard version represented in the 2003 Version of the Sport Climbing Lexicon :lol:

How much do you want to bet that I have at least 3 times as many climbing days as you do over the last four years.
Do you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor and thus the difficulty?

To put this discussion in another light.
There are two types of sport climbers that I have seen at the crags. One is the type that does roshambo with his partner to see who tries to try the on-sight while putting the draws in and who gets to try it with the draws already in. They often canít agree and end up sitting around until someone else clips up the route for them. (often magazine climbers)

Then there is the climber that looks for the same route without any draws on it in order to do the route in the best style possible. (often the strongest climber around)

The second type get my admiration and emulation. And anybody that says there is not a difference is a wanker. (sorry but true)


kalcario


Jul 1, 2003, 3:37 PM
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"What's up, guy, how'd it go today"

"Pretty good, I sent, finally."

"That 11b you've been working? Right on!"

"Um, actually, it was 12d."

"Oh, really, the guide says 11b...hmm.."

"Yeah, but I went up there with a 25-pound weight belt, so it was 12d"

This is basically what you're saying, that the route is rated for how hard it really is, plus whatever arbitrary BS you decide is appropriate for the send, and anybody who doesn't go up there with a 25 pound weight belt has a weak ego that couldn't deal with the 25 pound weight belt because it threatens their masculinity.


roughster


Jul 1, 2003, 3:40 PM
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In reply to:
How much do you want to bet that I have at least 3 times as many climbing days as you do over the last four years.
Do you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor and thus the difficulty?

To put this discussion in another light.
There are two types of sport climbers that I have seen at the crags. One is the type that does roshambo with his partner to see who tries to try the on-sight while putting the draws in and who gets to try it with the draws already in. They often canít agree and end up sitting around until someone else clips up the route for them. (often magazine climbers)

Then there is the climber that looks for the route without any draws on it in order to do the route in the best style possible. (often the strongest climber around)

The second type get my admiration and emulation. And anybody that says there is not a difference is a wanker. (sorry but true)

Especially the, "How much do you want to bet that I have at least 3 times as many climbing days as you do over the last four years."

I don't know you or your history so I wont make the same mistake that you did by ASSumming to know anything about you, but if your statement is true, you live in a world where there is more than 365 days in a year. For the last 10 years I have climbed multiple times a week including aid, sport, and bouldering. In addition, I have spent time working on access and land managers, building trails, developing entire areas, and hiking/scouting near areas.

"Do you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor and thus the difficulty?"

Nope, I don't deny it, I simply say it does not matter in relationship to the term "redpoint". It is a very simple and easily defendable position because it is true. Preplaced protection ='s preplaced protection, and thats why there is no concern or usage of "pink/red"-point as it is related to sport climbing.

Let me put it to you this way: By your logic, degrees of difficulty should result in differing "??"-point terminology?

Well then, next trad climb I do, I am going to preplace the gear, but leave any biners off of the pieces. As I climb, I am going to hang a draw on each placement, then claim a purplepoint. Surely just hanging the draws is worthy of a "new" term as it is added difficulty to hang the draws, I just didn't actually place the gear on lead.

Its called splitting hairs over two situations that don't warrant any distinction between them. Its not that one isn't in fact slightly harder, it's just that in relationship to the over all effort put into climbing the moves on lead (of course thats to head off the TR argument) the two situations don't add up to enough extra effort to warrant different terms.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 4:01 PM
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Roughster
my comment was a reaction to
"not just think about climbing behind a computer screen" which I felt confidant was an assumption about me. If I was wrong you have my appoligies. Up until this year I spent 3 1/2 years climbing full time and just assumed you are a weekender.

I don't care about the labels, I do care about people saying there is no difference. As far as the two terms I will stick with what I was originally taught and see no reason to change it.
In reply to:
I have spent time working on access and land managers, building trails, developing entire areas, and hiking/scouting near areas.
As far as that you have my respect and gratitude.

Dan


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 4:09 PM
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I still maintain that the best climbers I have met at any particular crag do not deny there is a distinction between doing a route with the draws in and without, and there actions show that they value that difference.
That is not to say that they do not do their hardest sends with draws in place.


styndall


Jul 1, 2003, 4:25 PM
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In reply to:
I still maintain that the best climbers I have met at any particular crag do not deny there is a distinction between doing a route with the draws in and without, and there actions show that they value that difference.
That is not to say that they do not do their hardest sends with draws in place.



So would you value my climb more if I hadn't preplaced the draws?

How about if I did in tennis shoes? Or maybe if I wore an eyepatch? Or perhaps if I kept a team of sex-crazed barbary apes with irritable bowel syndrome around to hurl rocks and feces while I climbed? That'd be harder, right? Hella harder?

It doesn't matter, though. None of those things involves me moving on the rocks. I can make a climb as hard as I want, and I don't expect anyone to give a crap about my feces-hurling-monkey-point.


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 6:01 PM
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In reply to:
How about if I did in tennis shoes?

Actually, I am big on climbing in my five-tennies, 2 letters below my best send.


chitlinsconcarne


Jul 1, 2003, 6:06 PM
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In reply to:

To put this discussion in another light.
There are two types of sport climbers that I have seen at the crags. One is the type that does roshambo with his partner to see who tries to try the on-sight while putting the draws in and who gets to try it with the draws already in. They often canít agree and end up sitting around until someone else clips up the route for them. (often magazine climbers)

Then there is the climber that looks for the same route without any draws on it in order to do the route in the best style possible. (often the strongest climber around)

The second type get my admiration and emulation. And anybody that says there is not a difference is a wanker. (sorry but true)

So true, so very true. Just a while back my buddy Jean Baptiste and I got into a viscious roshambo duel at the base of El Cap. For hour after hour the match was a mexican standoff, neither participant willing to back down and go for anything less than the holy "rock"..to pull the paper or the scissors would have been a defeat even in victory. Word of the epic duel spread across the valley. Reporters from the 2 really good climbing mags showed up. The guys from Rock and Ice and Climbing showed up to.
It was brutal. The cramps were unbelievable. Throughout the night...1,2,3..Rock! 1,2,3..Rock! We were each committed to victory, the mighty battle showed no signs of ending..

..then some chick showed up and freed the whole route anyway, so we went bouldering.

true story.


ajkclay


Jul 1, 2003, 6:54 PM
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It seems as though you can't post to this unless you are quoting someone else.


In reply to:
ajkclay 1 said:

It seems as though you can't post to this unless you are quoting someone else.

Not true you idiot!

In reply to:
ajkclay 2 said:

Not true you idiot!

who are you calling an idiot?

In reply to:
ajkclay 1 said:

who are you calling an idiot?

YOU, you idiot!

In reply to:
ajkclay 2 said:

YOU, you idiot!

yeah? well it takes one to know one!


etc etc etc

:lol:


alpnclmbr1


Jul 1, 2003, 7:52 PM
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word


gthornberg


Jul 1, 2003, 11:33 PM
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Harder to red point vs pink point? I guess it depends on the climb and the draws:

(a) I've have a horrible time unclipping draws where the biners have notches jamming on my gear loops.

(b) I've had a hard time reaching the last draw I have on my right side when I have to use my less-coordinated left arm to get them.

Then again...

(c) I've had an easy time on some climbs red-pointing because neither of these were factors.

So in as vague a fashion as I can concoct an answeróit depends.

GT


QITNL


May 8, 2015, 12:32 AM
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Re: [gthornberg] Red Point VS Pink Point [In reply to]
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HELLO -

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE. WE ARE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT.


kennoyce


May 8, 2015, 5:48 AM
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QITNL wrote:
HELLO -

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE. WE ARE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT.

We are? It seems to me that the last time I remember hearing this argument was back in about 2003, and it was already pretty much a worn out argument at that point.


yanqui


May 9, 2015, 6:31 AM
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After 12 years, supertopo has finally caught up with rockclimbing.com


PS (added later in an edit): Seems to me this is an "argument" that only lives in the virtual world of climbing forums, where people (most who don't sport climb very hard) wanna talk about words. In the real world of hard sport climbing, there's no argument at all.


(This post was edited by yanqui on May 9, 2015, 7:20 AM)


curt


May 19, 2015, 9:24 AM
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yanqui wrote:
After 12 years, supertopo has finally caught up with rockclimbing.com


PS (added later in an edit): Seems to me this is an "argument" that only lives in the virtual world of climbing forums, where people (most who don't sport climb very hard) wanna talk about words. In the real world of hard sport climbing, there's no argument at all.

How did I miss this 12 years ago? Oh right--it's about sport climbing :-)

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on May 19, 2015, 9:26 AM)

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