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borealforest
Nov 8, 2015, 2:41 AM
Post #1 of 7
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Registered: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 9
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Hi all-
I dont know if im a beginner- but i certainly dont know everything. And I found myself in a weird spot the other day and wanted multiple opinions.
The situation:
I arrived at the top of a sport climb (which was a nice big ledge) and clipped 2 quickdraws into 2 hangers for a gates opposed anchor. I was asked to use my belay device to then belay up a gal who wanted to understand how belaying a second works (to inspect it once she climbed up to my anchor). Now- normally where i have belayed from the top I have built an anchor with a cordalette and clove hitched into one of the two locking 'biners and clipped my belay device into the second one; belaying from there. But at the top of this sport climb the two opposed unlocking wiregates gave me a hangup. If I was clipped to one of them and clipped the device to the second, there was no redundancy for either of us. So I girth hitched a sling in my harness and anchored to the hangers. but i couldnt use BOTH qquickdraw biners in my belay device in "seconder" mode. so I was advised to "clip a locker through both wiregates and clip the atc to the locker".
I did it and it all worked out fine.
but my question is based on this BINER TO BINER setup. I have always understood this to be a unsuggested practice.
Was there a better way i couldve worked this one? (i mean other than buildin a whole other anchor at the top?)
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sungam
Nov 9, 2015, 1:26 AM
Post #2 of 7
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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I never understood the perceived benefit of using draws at the anchor instead of a sling.
Why not just toss a 240 and some lightweight lockers on it?
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escalabrasil
Nov 9, 2015, 8:37 PM
Post #3 of 7
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Registered: Mar 30, 2005
Posts: 51
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I agree that it always makes sense to bring a sling and lockers and not rely on QDs for anchors. I probably would have belayed directly from the harness in this case. Once the climber is up and secured, you can always take your time to show her how to set up to belay from the anchor.
As for the metal on metal issue- most people don't recommend it, believing that it can make it easier for the biners to unclip themselves, or become triaxially (that's not a word, is it?) loaded. The chances of that happening are small, but... why risk it?
Searching the site brought this up: http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1660889;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
Climb safe!
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sungam
Nov 10, 2015, 8:24 AM
Post #4 of 7
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
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I have become a big fan of autoblockers and usually have a cheeky wee sip of water and maybe a wee num num at the belay while bringing up the second. plate on the master point, and so is my daisy/pas/sling (just make sure it doesn't interfere with the plate).
Plus it's easier to turn it into a 5:1 to haul their ass out when they drop your nice new carbon ice tool in a river.
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lena_chita
Moderator
Nov 10, 2015, 5:19 PM
Post #5 of 7
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Registered: Jun 27, 2006
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borealforest wrote: Hi all- I dont know if im a beginner- but i certainly dont know everything. And I found myself in a weird spot the other day and wanted multiple opinions. The situation: I arrived at the top of a sport climb (which was a nice big ledge) and clipped 2 quickdraws into 2 hangers for a gates opposed anchor. I was asked to use my belay device to then belay up a gal who wanted to understand how belaying a second works (to inspect it once she climbed up to my anchor). Now- normally where i have belayed from the top I have built an anchor with a cordalette and clove hitched into one of the two locking 'biners and clipped my belay device into the second one; belaying from there. But at the top of this sport climb the two opposed unlocking wiregates gave me a hangup. If I was clipped to one of them and clipped the device to the second, there was no redundancy for either of us. So I girth hitched a sling in my harness and anchored to the hangers. but i couldnt use BOTH qquickdraw biners in my belay device in "seconder" mode. so I was advised to "clip a locker through both wiregates and clip the atc to the locker". I did it and it all worked out fine. but my question is based on this BINER TO BINER setup. I have always understood this to be a unsuggested practice. Was there a better way i couldve worked this one? (i mean other than buildin a whole other anchor at the top?)
Biner-on-biner is "unsuggested" practice because there is a twist, so in a fall one biner might twist against the gate and wrench the other biner open.
BUT... that is scenario that is more likely to happen in a situation where your setup is unweighted/loose, and then becomes suddenly weighted.
E.g. if you need to make your sport draw longer for some reason, you shouldn't just clip the 2nd quickdraw into the first one to make a chain, and then climb above it on lead. Instead you should remove one of the biners, so your configuration is biner-sling-biner-sling-biner.
In your scenario, that master point 'biner is a) continuously weighted b)supervised. I would be O.K. with biner-on-biner contact in this scenario. Just like I am totally fine clipping one quickdraw into another quickdraw when I go in direct at a bolt, or cleaning the anchor.
The other potential concern is triaxial loading-- e.i. it in not biner-on-biner that is problematic, so much as the fact that you have 3 directions of force pull. But if your anchor bolts are close together and the angle between the two quickdraws is small, it is not a problem. I suppose you could have put the bottom biners of the quickdraws through both dogbones, to simulate tying your separate slings together at the anchor, before clipping both of them to your belay biner. But some quickdraws have rubber gaskets at the bottom, making it hard.
Anyway, you did fine. But if that ledge was really big, and the anchor was couple feet higher than your waist, you could have anchored yourself and just stood there, belaying the follow as if you were doing a usual toprope belay, instead of belaying in the guide mode. (e.i. have the belay device clipped to your belay loop as usual, and redirect through the anchors).
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kennoyce
Nov 10, 2015, 6:06 PM
Post #6 of 7
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Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1338
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What Lena said, biner on biner is not a problem in this scenario. The problem with biner on biner is that if the lower biner is twisted it can unclip itself from the biner it's attached to. In this case, since you are standing right next to the biner you can ensure that it doesn't twist.
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borealforest
Nov 11, 2015, 4:45 PM
Post #7 of 7
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Registered: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 9
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Hey thanks everyone.
Normally i build a great anchor with gear. or on sport routes i haul up a bomber quad cordelette. I used the draws on this as it was someone elses setup they wanted replaced- and i wasnt asked about belaying from the top until i got there.
Anyway - good thoughts on the biner to biner contact. (i guess i couldve switched out the draw biners for lockers)
ObviousTroll: I dont think anyone is arguing at all here. What the heck are you talkign about.
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