|
azmonsoon
Jan 21, 2003, 11:30 PM
Post #1 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 10
|
I'm doing a research project and wanted to get some beta from climbers on their opinions of closures due to Native American rituals or beliefs. for example Devil's Tower. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Jan 22, 2003, 2:16 AM
Post #2 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
Isn't the Tower closure voluntary?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jen_c
Jan 22, 2003, 3:06 PM
Post #3 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 18, 2002
Posts: 290
|
The closure at Devil's Tower is purely voluntary and a lot of people go out and climb in June anyway.
Here's a couple of web sites for you to check out:
http://www.devils-tower.com/freedom/
http://www.accessfund.org/whoweare/who_about_pos_sacred.html
Hope this helps.
Jennifer
|
|
|
|
|
aarong
Jan 22, 2003, 3:19 PM
Post #4 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2002
Posts: 180
|
I completely respect the voluntary closures by climbers at various crags in respect of Native American rituals. I think to not climb on Devil's Tower one month out of the year is not that big a deal - and it demonstrates a working and responsible relationship between two groups who each love the place.
|
|
|
|
|
furryfrisbee
Jan 22, 2003, 3:46 PM
Post #5 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2002
Posts: 260
|
Ok, since I'm part Native American, does this mean that I can climb where there are closings due to Native American beliefs?
|
|
|
|
|
cologman
Jan 22, 2003, 4:03 PM
Post #6 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 29, 2002
Posts: 581
|
By respecting Native American rituals and traditions we not only preserve a valuable component of our heritage but also stand a chance of personally learning more of the cultures involved. Seems like a very small concession on our part.
|
|
|
|
|
climb4life
Jan 22, 2003, 4:32 PM
Post #7 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2002
Posts: 174
|
when it comes down to religous ESPECIALLY native americans cause i was raised on that culture. to make a big story short, my mom and sister is cathloics, while my dad and dad's side family is native american. i am not a religous person, but when i hear about anything relating to "my people", i always take serious considerations. even i support the idea of freedom of religous, and stuff like that and the churchs, and the intresting thing about native americans is that they do have churchs, not buildings but sacred grounds or sacred burial grounds or ect. it leads me to beleive that we should respect thier area of where they go and do their stuff just like the cathlics and the church and so on. However, i am a climber myself and i have climbed the tower several times before. i never heard of any issues about the tower until i read this forum. i know nothy about native americans and the devil tower, but whatever it is, i think we should respect thier wishes. i don't mean, don't climb, but listen and work out an agreement.
a good example would be wako tent city (not sure on the spelling) in tx, they had to close off a lot of places because boulders was not respecting the petlygraphs and that is disrespecting the native americans. maybe we should start thinking about who else takes places as valuably as we does.
climb on
|
|
|
|
|
climbjs
Jan 22, 2003, 5:01 PM
Post #8 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2002
Posts: 379
|
While living about 30 miles from Devil's Tower, I remember when the voluntary closure was initiated. At first, I was shocked at the rights that were being stripped away from me, as a climber. If you remember, there were other access/closure issues pending about that time which seemed threatening to climbers. I mean, who's to tell me that I can't climb on the Tower in June, right?
Then, I familiarized myself with the issues. The Native Americans were requesting a month of reprival from climbing. Now, if you've ever visited Devil's Tower, you are probably somewhat aware of the significance of Devil's Tower to the Sioux, Crow, Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota Indians. It's important to recognize that not only is Devil's Tower sacred, but so is Crow Peak, Bear Butte, and Spearfish Canyon, which are all within 80 miles of Devil's Tower. In particular, the town of Sundance, Wyoming, (30 miles from the Tower)has hosted sundances for a long,long,long time. In short, this whole area is very sacred to Native Americans. There are signs of the religious significance of the area to the Native Americans all over: prayer flags around the Tower and Bear Butte.
When the voluntary closure was initiated, a Devil's Tower local guide, Andy Petefish, took the case to court, claiming: How can the NPS allow one religious group (Native Americans) to practice during June, while excluding another religious group (climbers)? Now, we could debate the terms of this particular case for years, and never agree, but let's just stick to facts. Obviously Andy had a financial stake in the case, as June tends to be one of the busiest months at the tower for guiding. He didn't win the case, but the VOLUNTARY closure remains.
From my experience, I was managing a climbing shop in Spearfish, SD at the time. People from all over the world came in on their way to the Tower and I made them aware of the voluntary closure. Most people respected it. In fact, in talking to the NPS, there was (in 1998) a 95% compliance rate!
It's important to understand why the Native Americans had qualms with climbing on the Tower. Both Native Americans and tourists, alike, disliked the deifcating, bolting (yeah, it's there, thanks inpart to Andy Petefish..), yelling, and even rescues that take place there. (But you should see what the tourists do to the area!)
Anyway, to my opinion............
I respect the voluntary closure. Both Devil's Tower and Native Americans have been there a lot longer than I. In fact, while my ancestors were chasing chickens in Ireland, the Sioux were sundancing at the base of Devil's Tower. If you've ever climbed at the tower, then you know the beauty and "aura" that surrounds the tower. For me, I think it would be bad karma to climb during June. I don't want to disrespect anoyne's religious beliefs (except, maybe mormons..).
And, the plethora of stellar climbing not far from the Tower. The Black Hills' Needles, Rushmore and Spearfish Canyon offer lifetimes of excellent climbing during June, and any other month.
So, I say respect it. Not only for your personal beliefs, but out of respect for other's.
|
|
|
|
|
climb4life
Jan 22, 2003, 5:06 PM
Post #9 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 24, 2002
Posts: 174
|
nicley put climbjs
i agreed with everything you said.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 5:26 PM
Post #10 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
I'm for the most part sympathetic to these closures. But it is a very complicated issue and could ultimately will present the country with far greater implications, a pandora's box of "me too's".
Put simply, if "voluntary" closures of public land , aka government land, are appropriate for Indian religious rites, are christian or muslim or shinto rites also to receive similar recognition? What about those cloning people and the Branch Davidian's? Oh, what if the Hale Bopp comet folks come back and state a need for some publicly held sacred site? Is that cool too?
Is the recognition of native american rites in preference of others tantamount to a "state supported church?"
It is quite clear in my mind that a government enforced closure could ultimately be fought to the Supreme Court and likely overturned, given time and money.
But in my opinion it comes down to an issue of respect.
I can respect some or even many Indian relgious limitations. Devil's Tower seems to suggest a path acceptable to all, indians, climbers and the constitution. But I would expect and even demand a similar recognition of climber needs as well. In other words, a genuine give and take, with neither side striving for an "all or nothing" position.
But a park enforced closure of Devil's Tower would be no different than a Nativity Scene at the park gate. If one, why not the other? If not one, then the other has to go too.
What about a voluntary nativity scene at the park gate, errected by local native americans (the christian kind), or a donated big gold statue of the Bhudda? You get the idea. This issue is at its heart ultimately far more complicated than simple recognition of a native america sacred sites.
Maybe you should put that in your paper too.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
climbjs
Jan 22, 2003, 6:27 PM
Post #11 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 1, 2002
Posts: 379
|
Dingus, I appreciate what you say. Unfortunately, you're speculating a lot about "what if's". First, the closure is voluntary. That means, that, if you choose, you can climb. Noone is going to stop you, legally, or otherwise. Do so if you choose. Secondly, perhaps the voluntary closure could be overturned, but I highly doubt it will be. If you're familliar with the Black Hills, you're aware of the sensitivity that the government has twoards Native Americans. And, that's important. And just.
There is no park enforced closure of the tower, and will never be. The NPS is keen enough to respect the second-largest user group of Devil's Tower (i.e. climbers). Certainly, the NPS is in a somewhat precarious position, but the last thing they want to do is exclude any group legally.
As for Hale Bopp comet folks, perhaps we should wait and see what they want.
ps Thanks climb4life. What you said was also well done!
[ This Message was edited by: climbjs on 2003-01-22 10:27 ]
[ This Message was edited by: climbjs on 2003-01-22 10:28 ]
|
|
|
|
|
hangdoggypound
Jan 22, 2003, 7:20 PM
Post #12 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2002
Posts: 169
|
climbjs: in your response to Dingus, I'd like to add that probably a good reason why Native American religious rights get "respected" - [small] I'm not sure what an appropriate word is [/small] - is because they were here (on this chunk of land we call The United States of America) first and consequently things like Devils Tower have probably been sacred to them longer than those things have been sacred to tourists, climbers, and even the NPS.
Sorry, dingus, but Branch dividians, muslims, christians, etc. are not quite in the same category as Native Americans.
|
|
|
|
|
azmonsoon
Jan 22, 2003, 7:29 PM
Post #13 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 10
|
THanks for all of your feedback. Devil's Tower was just ONE example though. Let's look at Cave ROck, NV. The Washoe Tribe has requested that the area be closed to climbers. ONLY to climbers. All other recreational users are still allowed in the area. This is from the Access Fund:::
WASHOE CONCERNS WITH CLIMBING:
In the Washoe Tribe's view, the physical effects of rock climbing and the mere presence of climbers on the rock are considered to be insensitive, distracting, and incompatible with their traditional spiritual activities. In addition, rock climbing "affects the setting, feel, and association" of the Cave Rock traditional cultural property (TCP), a legal property designation protected under the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA). Washoe elders have expressed specific concern regarding female climbers at the site, noting that the presence of women is a particular desecration. According to the Washoe, the intimate contact between climbers and Cave Rock leads to an exchange of power between the rock and climbers that affects the TCP. Thus, vehicles traveling through the tunnels are transitory and do not affect the rock as much as climbers. The Washoe would prefer that only their recognized spiritual doctors be allowed access to Cave Rock; the Forest Service has accommodated their wishes only to the extent that climbers will be excluded -- all other recreational and transportation uses will be allowed to continue unchanged.
Please tell me what you think about this closure.
|
|
|
|
|
hangdoggypound
Jan 22, 2003, 7:48 PM
Post #14 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2002
Posts: 169
|
azmonsoon - ahh yes....sounds like a tacky white-republican lawyer is representing the Washoe...
But seriously, it sounds like there is more bureaucracy behind the scenes than we are told. What I really think is that the Washoe would really like the entire thing to be closed to every one, but are fighting for inches at a time to set a precedent. Climbers are the easiest (possibly) because our numbers are smaller and the "troubles" we present unique - you know, such as haning from ropes on the side of the rock, bolts, injuries, etc. People shooting photos and having picnics and leaving trash are much more common. So if they can pick off the climbers first to set the precedent that Cave Rock is sacred and they want people to leave it alone - eventually close off the roads, too.
My opinion here is 100% hunch.
|
|
|
|
|
rockpossum
Jan 22, 2003, 8:02 PM
Post #15 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2002
Posts: 230
|
Hi dingus,
Some of your points are well taken but...
"are christian or muslim or shinto rites also to receive similar recognition?"
...they already do; In their countries of origin.
I also believe these religions recieve special tax and property status in the U.S.A. That pertains to bona fide religious locations ie: churches, mosques, synagogues, religious schools etc. not that big a difference unless you want to split legal hairs or dismiss native religious beliefs for some other reason.
As for your paper azmoonson the Ayers Rock situation in Australia might be interesting. Similar issues of access and traditional beliefs between tourists and Australian Aborigines.
Mike
[ This Message was edited by: rockpossum on 2003-01-22 12:08 ]
|
|
|
|
|
kevlar
Jan 22, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #16 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 272
|
what about the good old days....when a case of whiskey an some shiny beads got the white man all the indian land he wanted...seems the indains chiefs are in want of some more drink...
|
|
|
|
|
azmonsoon
Jan 22, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #17 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 10
|
First of all. THe Muslims, etc are not Native to the Southwest. So that won't pertain here. Let's not get off subject here and talk about other religions. Yes, this is public land we are talking about. Public, which means we all get to have a say. I think it's about damn time the goverment realized that our Federal Lands didn't always belong to us. What's so bad about giving the Native Americans a bbit of land that isn't only good for development? I do NOT agree with the facts that all other recreation groups area allowed on the site. Granted climbers can be loud and unsitely and need helicopter rescues here and there. But to say that hikers and picnickers are leaving garbage and that climbers are such a small harmless group is ignorant. Climbers drop trash all the time. Tape/Chalk anyone. Please. We are all users the same. So maybe we could close the whole area including the road and hiking and bird watching, just so its fair. Life isn't fair.
[ This Message was edited by: azmonsoon on 2003-01-22 12:12 ]
|
|
|
|
|
azmonsoon
Jan 22, 2003, 8:13 PM
Post #18 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 10
|
kevylar,
opinions like yours are not neccessary. might as well hop back on your ATV and grab your gun and case of Nat. Light. Ride on out of this discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
kevlar
Jan 22, 2003, 8:14 PM
Post #19 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 272
|
but who am i to complain...seems the indians got good both ways now...here in california...they get tax dollars from all of us climbers...ranging in the millions...an they are making a killing on legal gambling casinos on what is called reservation land..lol
|
|
|
|
|
kevlar
Jan 22, 2003, 8:21 PM
Post #20 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 272
|
asmonzoon...wheres the love man....i am able to have my opinion...just like the rest of america...i have nothing but respect for the indians...they respect the land more than the white man ever will...but is obious we all are just visitors here...so lets party till the rocks fall...who is the number one pollutor in our country? the government...i think....spewing out lie after lie ...checked your blood pressure lately
p.s. i love this site...it is the best...i feel the need ...hum...not sure yet...but sure it will come to me
[ This Message was edited by: kevlar on 2003-01-22 12:24 ]
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 8:21 PM
Post #21 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
"Sorry, dingus, but Branch dividians, muslims, christians, etc. are not quite in the same category as Native Americans. "
First of all, I stated that I am mostly sympathetic to these closures. Let's get that settled right now. But your statement above is patently ridiculous.
I got news for you, I am native American, no less so because my ancestors came here a few dozen generations later than the Souix. Saw an interesting program last night on public TV. We are ALL (read, as in all humanity) of African descent, about 5000 generations. So I'm African American too, just as African as someone who's anscestors came here on a slave ship.
I don't really care to categorize and label people as others apparently do. I see 3 key issues and the law of the land is quite clear in support of this position:
1. Citizens are granted certain rights under the US Constitution, as well as certain protections.
2. A state supported church is verboten. That is one of those protections.
3. We need to be respectful of the religious and ethnic needs of our fellow citizens and we need to do that in a way that doesn't descriminate one in favor of another.
The voluntary closure of Devil's Tower is a perfect example of local respect and finding a way toward a middle ground. It is GOOD THING!
Now you may remount your high horse and go off on any tangent you wish. But to state that native american religious rights supercede any other set of recognized religious rites, for whatever reason, is simply not correct and not supported by the constitution.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 8:22 PM
Post #22 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
“Unfortunately, you're speculating a lot about "what if's".”
Am I now? Let’s review:
“I'm doing a research project and wanted to get some beta from climbers on their opinions of closures due to Native American rituals or beliefs. for example Devil's Tower. Any input would be greatly appreciated.” (in hindsight, apparently not appreciated at all. I question the sincerity of this "research project" at this point, but, WHAT-EVER!)
ANY input is appreciated. 2ndly, the thread is about closures. Devils Tower is an example.
How about the pending closure of Cave Rock at Lake Tahoe? An outright closure to climbing in deference to local native tribes, this at a rock that ironically has a 4 lane highway drilled through the middle of it.
“There is no park enforced closure of the tower, and will never be.”
Because when they originally contemplated such a ban they realized the very points I made would see the light of day. And never is such a long time…
As I stated in my post, I am mostly sympathetic to these voluntary closures, as long as they are not an ‘all or nothing’ proposition. I would certainly respect the June closure of Devil’s Tower. It’s a great example of local solutions to potentially volatile situations, a great example of respect! The voluntary status of the situation keeps it out of the constitutional realm… as I recognized in my post.
But the issue is not just Devil’s Tower. Not all closures, proposed or enacted, are voluntary. There are clearly constitutional issues at stake and dismissing them as “ain’t never gonna happen” doesn’t reflect reality. The original poster asked for opinions and I opined.
Cheers,
DMT
[ This Message was edited by: dingus on 2003-01-22 12:29 ]
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 8:27 PM
Post #23 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
"THe Muslims, etc are not Native to the Southwest."
Neither are the so-called "native Americans." AS far as I know, the Souix aren't native to the Southwest and Devil's Tower isn't located there. And they didn't spring out of the earth you know. They migrated here, same as the rest of us. We are ALL of African descent.
Let me ask you something dude... why ask for opinions if you really aren't receptive to diverse answers? Open your mind! Or lesast make some cogent arguments...
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
azmonsoon
Jan 22, 2003, 8:49 PM
Post #24 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 10
|
Dingus,
Yes I want lots of opinions. I'm not saying my opinion is the say all. My project is in the forming stages, not a project yet. I just wanted to see what people thought of the closures. ALl climbers have different opinions. I merely wanted a few views, that's all. Thanks for you input, it has been very helpful. I'm sorry if I didn't say so earlier. THankyou again.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Jan 22, 2003, 8:58 PM
Post #25 of 32
(7056 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
"Yes I want lots of opinions. I'm not saying my opinion is the say all. [snip] I'm sorry if I didn't say so earlier. THankyou again. "
Cool Bro. I guess I'm just suspicious of researchers who argue with their subjects. When I went to school that sort of this was generally discouraged! Seems like you're trying to find opinions to support your preconceived notions.
I'm curious, you seem to have very strong thoughts on the subject. Is it your intent to use the project to showcase those opinions or are you going to attempt to set aside your prejudices and offer a more balanced view?
Just curious...
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
