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enigma
Jan 26, 2003, 1:17 AM
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Just wondering if anyone susceptible to these have had them exacerbated after climbing? Unfortunately this week I had three,only after several days in bed,and a a deep tissue massage I am feeing some relief.
Any helpful info is appreciated.Thanks.
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phyre
Jan 26, 2003, 1:24 AM
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I get headaches a lot when I'm not climbing, but the only time that I have had a really bad one when climbing I was wearing a helmet. I thought it was adjusted correctly but apparently it wasn't because my head hurt for about 6 hours after I took it off. If you were wearing a helmet it might be something worth checking.
hope you figure it out.
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enigma
Jan 26, 2003, 1:37 AM
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Nope,no helmet was involved,interestingly this migraine came along after I got home,not while actually climbing. The massage therapist said it was due, perhaps partially from neck strain,and rhombus muscles in my back and muscles in the front of my shoulders. Thanks,anyway
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lynne
Jan 26, 2003, 1:40 AM
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I had regular migraines for a couple of years. The first one was brought on with an incident of chemical poisening. After that they were always triggered by scents - paint fumes, cleaning fluids, and perfume. I take great pains to avoid strong chemicals now.
I'm pretty sure my doctor told me that most people have specific triggers. So if you know what yours are, think about if you may have unknowingly encountered any while climbing. It could be something like a new rope with chemical dry treatment or other new gear, a strong smelling plant, a partner's cologne (ugh), or even perhaps stress related to fear while climbing. I carry an Imitrex inhaler in my First Aid kit in case I get hit with one. I feel for you - migraines are debilitating. I hope you figure it out.
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saxonz
Jan 26, 2003, 1:51 AM
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Migrains are totallt different to headaches
and strange things happen while your head is
exploding, like dilated blood vessels in the brain etc.
I used to get them (vomit, sleep, vomit, sleep and so on) until i had my neck looked at by a chiropractor, I haven't had one since
(2 years)
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jerrygarcia
Jan 26, 2003, 1:55 AM
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I have had migraines since I was a child. I take imitrex for my migraines and they disappear within minutes of taking the medication. Get to your doctor and get some imitrex.
Dave
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lynne
Jan 26, 2003, 1:58 AM
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yeah I remember asking my doc to cut off my head the first time I had one, and with each one I've had I remember a blurry few days of unspeakable pain, trying to sleep between boughts of worship at the porcelain altar... The visual effects are always my first symptom and I don't know what I'd do if I got one while climbing. I'm SO glad I haven't had one in over a year!
Good luck, Enigma!!
Edit - Jerry I wish I could say Imitrex was as effective for me. It really only helps me sleep but doesn't end the headache/vomiting at all. Do you use the nasal inhaler?
[ This Message was edited by: lynne on 2003-01-25 17:59 ]
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jerrygarcia
Jan 26, 2003, 1:59 AM
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Migraines come and go. Every year is different for me. One year I will have no migraines at all, the next its 15, next its 3. Im sure its based on many factors in your life(stress,diet,health).
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jerrygarcia
Jan 26, 2003, 2:03 AM
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Lynne,
I only use the inhaler, I think thats what helps it fight the migraine so fast. Also taking it as soon as you feel the first symptom, it can beat the migraine down before it can build up. I can tell as soon as I wake up whether im going to have a migraine. I am only basing this info on 2 years of migraines as I had never taken a drug for it prior. I have had migraines since I was 7 years old.
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enigma
Jan 26, 2003, 2:03 AM
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Is there any cures that are natural,homeopathic from the health food store/?? for migraines that someone has had success with?
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lynne
Jan 26, 2003, 2:21 AM
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Jerry, I use the inhaler, too. I must not be taking it soon enough. I haven't had as much practice as you have identifying when one is coming on. Gosh how horrible to have these so young as you did! I do know that whenever I get any headache I am always afraid it will become a migraine, but every single migraine I've had has been brought on by chemical odors. I have been putting off replacing the carpet (aka puppy chew toy) in my home for years to avoid the formaldehyde off-gassing!
Enigma, you should ask your doctor about alternate medicine. If s/he isn't familiar with any homeopathic options, talk to a homeopathic practitioner or pharmacist. Be aware though that "natural" doesn't imply "safe" and be careful. Homeopathic remedies can be very dangerous and/or toxic when used improperly.
I believe Imitrex works by relaxing the blood vessels in the head so it's a fairly serious process (I may be remembering the specifics incorrectly though). Ecedrine claims to have some success with migraine relief, but I don't know anyone who has had it work for them. The aspirin in Ecedrine thins the blood and the caffeine in it stimulates your heart. Personally I don't see how that can be enough to do squat. Run anything you try by your doc.
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jt512
Jan 27, 2003, 5:47 PM
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Homeopathic "remedies" contain nothing. They are just water. If they have any effect at all, it is placebo effect.
-Jay
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jen_c
Jan 28, 2003, 4:19 AM
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My neurologist put me on a tiramine (sp?) restricted diet and that went a long way to helping minimize them - I have had migraines all my life (literally) so I've learned to "live" with them. Imitrex doesn't work for everyone - I had a bad reaction to it and therefore can't take it
They can really ruin a day of climbing too. I've tried to climb with them but I've probably had my worst days of climbing when I did this so I finally just gave up trying when I have them.
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jt512
Jan 28, 2003, 4:37 AM
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Quote:
JT: Homeopathic "remedies" contain nothing. They are just water. If they have any effect at all, it is placebo effect.
Wow, what a wide-reaching, all-knowing comment.
The truth about homeopathy is simple: There is nothing but water in the treatments. The "remedies" are so heavily diluted that not even a single molecule of the supposedly active ingredient is in each dose. If you know so much about homeopathy, shakylegs, why don't you know this. Homeopaths readily admit this to be true. They think their "medicines" work despite the fact that they only contain water.
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Now, I'm sure you have independant, scientific reports backing this up. You do, don't you?
Yes, actually I do:
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Br J Clin Pharmacol 2002 Dec;54(6):577-82
A systematic review of systematic reviews of homeopathy.
Ernst E.
Department of Complementary Medicine, School of Sport & Health Sciences,
University of Exeter, 25 Victoria Park Road, Exeter EX2 4NT UK.
Homeopathy remains one of the most controversial subjects in therapeutics. This article is an attempt to clarify its effectiveness based on recent systematic reviews. Electronic databases were searched for systematic reviews/meta-analysis on the subject. Seventeen articles fulfilled the inclusion/exclusion criteria. Six of them related to re-analyses of one landmark meta analysis. Collectively they implied that the overall positive result of this meta analysis is not supported by a critical analysis of the data. Eleven independent systematic reviews were located. Collectively they failed to provide strong evidence in favour of homeopathy. In particular, there was no condition which responds convincingly better to homeopathic treatment than to placebo or other control interventions. Similarly, there was no homeopathic remedy that was demonstrated to yield clinical effects that are convincingly different from placebo. It is concluded that the best clinical evidence for homeopathy available to date does not warrant positive recommendations for its use in clinical practice.
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Hello? You there?
Unfortunately, for you, I am indeed here.
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Homeopathic medecines are a viable option for a lot of ailments, and it's absolutely ridiculous of you to posit otherwise.
Well, Einstein, I hate to tell you, but the evidence says otherwise.
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In fact, a lot of medical remedies are derived from the same ingredients as homeopaths, i.e. plant sources, fungal sources, etc.
True, but conventional medicines aren't infinitely diluted; homeopathic "medicines" are.
-Jay
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coldclimb
Jan 28, 2003, 4:39 AM
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My guess is your neck tweaked from looking up at the climber a lot while belaying. Neck tweakage can cause major headaches.
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climbingjac
Jan 28, 2003, 5:16 AM
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Yes - I have lots of trouble with this. I control it with lots of stretching. It is important to stretch out your back as well as your neck. You can stretch out your back by sitting on the floor with one leg stretched out straight in front of you. Then lean forward and hold it still for 30seconds. Repeat a few times until you can feel it doing some good. (Then repeat with the other leg stretched out in front of you). You can stretch your neck out in a number of ways. Here are two:
1. Tuck your chin down towards your chest & hold for 30seconds. Repeat a few times.
2. Tilt your head to the side till you feel it stretching the muscle/tendon, then tuck your chin down a little bit. Hold for 30seconds. Repeat a few times. The degree to which you tuck your chin down can be altered to suit your situation. Note that this is a very effective stretching technique to get rid of migraines that make you feel ill.
Good luck!
[ This Message was edited by: climbingjac on 2003-01-27 21:17 ]
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fitz
Jan 28, 2003, 7:07 AM
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At the risk of getting yet another blast from JT512, I'll put a plug in for 'alternate' medicine. I don't suffer from migraines, but have certainly had a long close association with someone who does. I also know a bit more than most about devastating illness and incurrable disorders.
It is easy to scoff and ridicule theories and treatments from a safe distance, but it is quite another thing to suffer a malady that a quick trip to RiteAid won't cure. I know a Neurosurgeon who uses a Chiropracter for crippling back pain - and is downright humiliated to admit that it works for him.
I also know many cancer patients, and many parents of developmentally disabled children who are treading far outside of mainstream medicine - some with seemingly positive results.
My take on it is simple. First, modern medicine as a science is still largely a myth. In many ways drug researchers today remain identical to witch doctors of our ancestrial past. Roam the world at large, stuff various things in your, or other's mouths, and look for pharmacological effects.
Most drugs in widespread use today are not fully understood. Even asperin, which has literally been used for thousands of years for pain and headache relief, remains something of a mystery.
Practices of doctors and surgeons are also an amazing amount of anecdotal lore, passed word of mouth. Years back, I saw eye surgeons exchange surgical techniques for use with a piece of equipment I helped develop. Trial, error, tiny statistical samples, and often no real thought to underlying theory for practices being passed to others.
It seems like a 'hard' science from a distance, and it is making strides, but always keep in mind how everything from nutrition, cancer, depression, child birth, and heart attacks have flip-flopped not once, but many times in theory and treatment in the last 20 years. Also, think how many "promising" developments come out of medical research in the form of press releases, but never develop into anything.
Second, many fringe, and even some not so fringe 'treatments' remain largely unstudied. Our understanding of the human body is still so incomplete that the only litmus test that really carries any weight in medical circles is statistical comparisons. The Holy Grail is a double blind test, because it elliminates the power of suggestion. If a treatment hasn't been studied this way, annecdotal reports of positive results cannot be fully dismissed.
Last, critics of alternative medicine make a big issue of the so-called placebo effect. In fact, the huge impact of belief and suggestion on health is so widely accepted and acknowledged, that it must be elliminated (see double blind above) for clinical trials to carry weight. I say, if you or someone close to you is suffering do you really give a rat's behind if healing and improvement comes from the mind or the medicine? Anyone who says they'll take pain over voodoo just hasn't learned how bad and enduring pain can be.
Now, I will put in some caveats - First, some 'alternate' treatments are not only useless, they are potentially dangerous. Try not to let desperation stop you from taking a look at risks, and scrutinizing any available 'science' backing up benefits.
Example: I've seen some people try Secretin, a porcine product used in some G-I treatments, on neurological disabilities. The underlying theory being that there is a brain/gut connection (at least in males ) There is already a fair amount of clinical study, and it is not at all promising. Porcine products also carry some demonstrated, real risk for a segment of the population.
Since I don't have answers for their problems, I'd be hesitant to say "don't" to these people, but I would (and do) caution them to take a hard look at the risks and demonstratable benefits before making their decisions.
Last caveat, I'd put the first caveat on 'supplements' as well as treatments. Climbers, like all athletes, are often looking for an edge. Just remember that some supplements might not just be expensive and benign, they might also be potentially bad for your health.
-jjf
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soze
Jan 28, 2003, 3:34 PM
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Enigma,
I've had to deal with migraines my whole life. I've tried over-the-counter, prescribed and homeopathic medicines. While I don't discount any of these remedies, I've found that the only thing that helped me was going to a chiropractor and a healthy diet. I also agree with the earlier post that you need to try to determine what is triggering them. Good luck!
--soze
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jt512
Jan 28, 2003, 5:09 PM
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JT, you still haven't given proof that homeopathic remedies are water-diluted.
Give proof? Shakylegs, how can you argue in favor of homeopathic products when you don't have even the first notion of what they are? You obviously are completely ignorant of homeopathy. Homeopathic products are produced by serial diluition of botanical extacts with water. This not something that requrires "proof." It is fact, banality. Read any book on homeopathy. Browse any website. The dilutions are often on the order of 1 to one trillion. Any homeopath will gladly confirm this. It is fundamental to homeopathic theory, and of course, also why it is physically impossible for homeopathic products to be more beneficial than placebo.
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For every study shown that homeopaths are placebos, I or anyone else who can use Google can produce a study showing otherwise.
Why don't you, then, shut up, use Google, and produce one. Such a study should be: (1) published in a peer-review journal, (2) whould be of at least equal quality to the one I cited, and (3) should not be one of the studies in the meta-analysis I cited, unless you can explain why it should stand on its own.
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Oh, and thinking that a university report is independent is disengenuous.
I have no idea what you mean by "independent," and I doubt you do either.
The study I cited is currently the leading study on homeopathy. It is a major meta-analysis of all published prior reports. It was conducted by the Complimentary Medicine Department of a University. If anything, you would think that they would be biased in favor of homeopathy; nonetheless, they found that homeopathy was worthless.
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But then, I've never assumed the position of arbiter of all things pharmocological.
You have also been just plain talking out of your ass. What made you think you can win an argument about a subject of which you are totally ignorant?
-Jay
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enigma
Jan 28, 2003, 6:56 PM
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I think that my headache might have been brought on by looking up as well,from neck strain while climbing.
However the pain and the inability to function is debilatating ,so it still is a migraine.
Now I'm feeling better, the deep tissue massage must have worked. Thankfully.
However, I still would like to have something on hand in the event , I get another migraine.
While I know that the Imitrex works, I'm extremely reluctant to become dependent on something with many side effects.
Would still like to hear from someone who actually has been successful in relieving the pain with a homeopathic cure. If it is possible.
Thanks again for your support and the stretching routine.
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jt512
Jan 28, 2003, 7:07 PM
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Well, this has gone on long enough...
Homeopathic medicines are diluted, but so is modern medicine.
No, Shakylegs, homeopathic "medicines" are diluted to the point where none -- not a single molecule -- of the "active" ingredient remains in the solution.
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...it’s gets [sic] downright deplorable when you start throwing insults at anyone who disagrees with you...may I suggest that you learn how to spell? Just a suggestion.
-Jay
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lynne
Jan 28, 2003, 7:14 PM
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enigma, it doesn't sound like a migraine to me, it sounds like a tension headache. Massage does nothing to relieve migraines. They are either nipped in the bud with one of 2 types of medicines, or they must run their course. Some meds, such as narcotic pain relievers, may relieve the symptoms, but only temporarily. The full blown migraine effects can be delayed, which is cruel. Migraines typically last anywhere from 4 to 72 hours, absolutely throb when you move even slightly, include nausea and vomiting, extreme sensitivity to light, sound and smell, the desire to be secluded, extreme irritability, sometimes a death wish, and when they are over, you are fine. No residual effects. They aren't brought on my muscle cramps. Tension headaches can last up to a week, and don't have light, sound or smell sensitivity or nausea/vomiting.
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fitz
Jan 28, 2003, 7:15 PM
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Enigma,
My only advice would be:
Bring dark sunglasses, and use them.
Avoid abrupt, or repetitive head motion.
Take extra time to rig your belays for a comfortable, relaxed position.
If you are a true, and recurrent migraine sufferer, you should probably keep a dose of medication with you just in case. Unfortunately, most intense migraine folks get better, faster relief through, uh, non-oral, administration immediately at onset.
Be sure to learn how to safely tie off your partner with something like a backed up mule knot. And be sure to communicate if you are becoming incapacitated.
Good Luck,
-jjf
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enigma
Jan 28, 2003, 7:43 PM
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Fitz, I think you misunderstood me, I've never gotten a migraine while climbing,and have never been to the point you described.
Mostly it seems to happen when I get home and I do think the pain was brought on by straining,my neck. thanks, maybe that could help someone else.
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mother_sheep
Jan 28, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Enigma - when I first started climbing, I got migraines almost immediately after I was finished climbing. It was very frustrating. I think mine are triggered by stress and diet. I think when I first started climbing, I wasn't relaxed enough. As much as I loved it, I was stressing myself out. Now that I feel very comfortable when I climb, I don't get them anymore after I climb. I do get them from time to time though just during every day stuff. As far as Imatrex goes, does it also help get rid of the nausea that goes along with the migraine? Good luck to you. Migraines are awful!
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