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retired
Jan 26, 2003, 4:45 PM
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Hello all,
I've been lurking around enjoying all the info and especially Pete's rambling but great informative posts. I'm a climber of 30 years and now with a bit more time on my hands (notice my name) have decided to get back into aid climbing. My old gear that got me up the trade routes: nose , salathe, prow, etc, two+ decades ago now seems horribly antiquated. I've gotten lots of good info here, but have not read anything by anyone using metolius adjustable aiders? Since the russian system is not available yet, this seems like a clean and intriquing way to go. The metolius adjustable daisy scares me a bit with the low strength rating...has anyone ever broke one bounce testing? Also want to get a shield harness by yates, anyone have a medium for sale? Any info would be appreciated. let's see if the old dog can learn new tricks. see you in the valley in march. Jim
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tenn_dawg
Jan 26, 2003, 6:03 PM
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The Adjustable Aiders are a bit to akward for aid in my opinion. Even the catalog says they they will work for "easy aid", (pronounced - Slab bolt ladders)
I have a pair that I use for my jugging setups,however, and I think that this is where they really shine. Team these up with a couple of adjustable dasies, and you can get your jug system dialed. Mine have got fresh cave mud on them as I type this. Wouldn't trade em.
Travis
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spiffdog
Jan 26, 2003, 6:32 PM
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I use the Metolious Adjustable Daisies, and for the most part, I love them. I regularly bounce test with them and haven't been the least bit concerned about them breaking. They are plenty strong. I am fairly lightweight though. I find them very useful for most types of climbing, with the exception of Roofs. Now Pete will disagree with me, largely because he is more experienced and has the system "dialed," but I find them to be difficult to release when I am transitioning to the next piece under a roof. The reason being, the release mechanism is at the far-end of the daisy instead of at your waist, so when you let out slack to make the move, you need to let it all out at once which means you are hanging on your arms during the transition. I readily admit that my roof technique is deplorable, and that with practice I'm sure the system works well, but when I did the Wet Denim Roof I flailed miserably. Of course, that was around the 32nd hour of climbing. So much for a one day ascent. Anyway, I highly recommend giving the daisies a try, but stear clear of the adjustable aiders, those are a deathtrap. You can see me hanging on my adjustables under the roof here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=7532
Spiff
[ This Message was edited by: spiffdog on 2003-01-26 10:34 ]
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aid312
Jan 26, 2003, 7:06 PM
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I have and swear by the Yates adjustables. Yes, I know I will be flamed but I have tried both the Yates as well as the Metolious and the main reason I like the Yates better is because you can release them very easily under load.
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climbhigher
Jan 26, 2003, 7:46 PM
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I agree with the previous post. The Yates adjustables kick ass. But after 50 pitches or so you gotta retire them and buy new ones because the webbing gets all fuzzy and they start slipping. You cant really release the Metiolus daisy under any kind of load. This sucks on traverses. As strength goes, just don't take a painfull daisy fall!!!!! (OUCH!!!) and they wont break. Maybe you would like them to break if you took a full length daisy fall on the yates or metiolus????
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retired
Jan 26, 2003, 8:28 PM
Post #6 of 21
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Thanks for the responses. I used a pair of metolius adjustable daisies last weekend and liked them, the aid was steep (110 degrees) but not roofs, and I thought they were pretty nifty. As I read on previous posts the prefrence for aiders seems to be:
1. Russian aiders (if you can find them)
2. wall ladders (two pair?)
3. regular aiders (two pair)
4. others
Does this seem correct? My old system, that I loved for mixed aid & free, was two 4 step (homemade)aiders on fi fi hooks with cords to my harness. Not enough aider and the cords get in the way for serious aid. they did however get me to the pitch above the dark tower on zodiac back in 82? where a 40 foot zipper on what I though were a-1 pins convinced my partner & I too bail. Revenge!? Jim
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mojorisin
Jan 26, 2003, 9:09 PM
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I learned from an old school climber the two aider system, wich I like. I have seen three aider and four aider systems but I think with all that stuff on the less you need the better. However I did a route with a guy who used a sytem he called cam buckles,,I assume that is the adjustable ones you all are talking about?
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spiffdog
Jan 27, 2003, 4:47 PM
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I use two pairs of yates wall ladders and I love them. The thick steps are KEY! I do admit however, that four aiders can be a bit of a clusterphuck. I could be convinced to use a three-aider system on easy or low-angle aid. On hard stuff I'll deal with 4 and like it.
Spiff
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sspssp
Jan 27, 2003, 5:18 PM
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A friend of mine, Nick, broke a Metolious adjustable daisy after taking a daisy fall onto a bolt. He was short fixing and went for forty feet or so.
[ This Message was edited by: sspssp on 2003-01-27 09:19 ]
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full-time-climb
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Jan 27, 2003, 5:29 PM
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This is a long overdo topic. I have used the adjusable aiders for more than a year. Here is what I know for sure:
1)You cannot up step on regilar aiders as fast a you can up-pull in these aiders.
2)There is never a cluster!@#%.
3)They stay attached to you boots without tension while jugging slab.
Having said all this I am considering retireing them for two reasons:
1)Very difficult to top step as you need to pull down on your webbing to step up and when you do this your head is down by your feet or your feet are up by your head. Second stepping is a dream. Regular aiders you can stand up and top step in.
2)And this reason number two is the scary one...I believe that if you do a headfirster and the piece you are standing on holds you will hang by your feet unbable to get them free. A regular set of aiders you could shake out of. These adjustables are cinched to your feet. You would have to do a sit up to free them.
Anyone had this happen? I have taken a big whipper in mine but the piece I was on ripped.
John
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newland
Jan 27, 2003, 5:55 PM
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The easy aiders are the first and only aiders I've ever used. Though I'll admit I can't compare, I do think they are awesome. I had a lot of trouble at first, but now I have developed a rythm which makes it much more efficient and avoids all the hang-ups I had before. I think this system has the potential to be much more efficient, if you give the time to discover a good technique. I'm still experimenting with different ways myself. And there are times when having a spare four-step ladder would have been helpful.
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retired
Jan 27, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #12 of 21
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All good food for thought, I am very seriously thinking of the Yates wall ladders. John, that is indeed a scarey scenario. I have an e-mail off to metolius asking about the possibility of breaking a daisy bounce testing and If they have demos, I live close enough to try the aiders out at smith rock if they do. Jim
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epic_ed
Jan 27, 2003, 10:03 PM
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Gotta add my two cents. The adjustable aiders were the first aiders I owned, and I still use them for jugging on occasion. I stopped using them after trying a regular set of aiders because I found that
moving up on the regular aiders was quicker and more efficient then cynching each foot, then each daisy, then each foot, then each...repeat until you feel like a marrionette.
As for regular aiders, there are none better than the Yates big wall ladders. I use two pair; my partners use just two; YMMV.
As for the strength ratings of the easy daisies, there was a thread about these recently on SuperTopos indicating that there have been some recent failures while taking a static fall on them and Metolius has downgraded their strength rating to just 300 lbs. The evidence was anecdotal with stories uncorroborated by anyone with a first hand account of a failure. I'd be interested to hear what Metolius has to say about it. I love mine and continue to use them for aid, but realize that they are not a full strength runner and should never be used as your sole attachment point to the anchor.
Ed
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mojorisin
Jan 28, 2003, 1:42 AM
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I love getting all this beta from guys and gals who have been there and done that. It helps us beginers to make choices based on what features we like. I do however like the two aider setup, but thats me. I had a set of misty mountain ladder type ones but they just never fit me right for dead vertical jugging. I have the Black Diamond now and like them alot. I know some guys dont like to climb up one aider but it doesnt seem to bad to me.
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retired
Feb 6, 2003, 4:41 PM
Post #15 of 21
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I wanted to add one more thought to this thread to kind of close it out. I e-mailed metolius with a couple questions about strength & if they had any failures of the adjustable daisy and the possibility of demoing the adjustable aider. I recived a curt response that they aren't a retail outlet and if i checked out the aiders in a shop i would see what a great product it is??? No answers to my technical questions at all. So I bought the Yates adjustable daisies and have Yates wall ladders on order. Guess they don't have time to deal with questions when they're making all that money.
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tenn_dawg
Feb 6, 2003, 5:11 PM
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Amen.
My business goes to the little guy whenever possible.
Nothing beats having a face behing a product rather than a logo.
Travis
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passthepitonspete
Feb 6, 2003, 6:43 PM
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Last spring at Nelson Rocks, I borrowed Stu'd Metolius Adjustable Aiders and gave them a try on the sharp end. I discarded them completely. I do not like them one little bit, and would not recommend them for aid climbing. The hottie blonde who demonstrates them on video makes them look much better than they are.
Were she climbing with me, she would make me look much better than I am.
It is admirable that Travis would take his jugs caving. I concur that these adjustable aiders would be ETS for jugging, but they are too expensive! You can do just as well with a designated sling like I use.
Travis, being a caver, was doubtlessly using the Frog system, right Travis? Please confirm.
And if you can't, you shall face the wrath of your Wall Doctor!
I agree with every word of Spiff's. I have bounce tested the livin' bejeepers out of my Metolius adjustable daisies, and have failed to harm them in the least. As for releasing them, he just needs to practise more! Sheesh. [And get some sleep, boy! How the heck did you ever make coffee when you were climbing 32 hours straight? Sheeesh. Then again, if you knocked off Moist Cotton Wandering Thoughts in a single push, you must be doing something right.....]
Aid312, I will not flame, you, at least not now. Your Yates are probably working swell, and they are certainly MUCH easier to operate and release. No doot aboot it. However, a year from now, when your buckles no longer grip, and you find yourself sliding downward from your piece, I want you to listen very very carefully to the voice of Dr. Piton whispering in your ear:
"I told you so....."
Oh geez, I'm writing as I read. Climbhigher just told you so.
Retired - your prioritized list is indeed in the correct order.
Mojo is right - less is more. That's why the Russkies are ETS!
But Spiff is right, on hard aid, you want two pairs.
[Dr. Piton considers two pairs, just for a moment. It's a nice moment. Right, back to business....]
sspssp - That'll teach Buddy about backcleaning, eh? He should Ask Mr. Hard Grit... about how to backclean and take high fall-factor falls.
Note: This is a situation where the built-in Screamer in the Yates system might be nice.
Hey, remember when I talked about how to rappel a severely overhanging pitch on my solo of Iron Hawk? When I was cleaning that pitch that traverses up and left above the Knifeblade Traverse, I ran out of cams at the top moving left towards the belay. I whacked in a 1 1/2" piton. It was all I had left. Anyway, I had never placed a bong-like device such as this, and I believe I placed it sideways by accident! Duh.
Anyway, when it pulled, I took the daisy chain fall, the daisy caught under my ribs [remember, I was traversing] and I'm pretty damn sure I broke my rib! I sure as hell cracked it. It really frickin' hurt.
But I finished the climb, dammit. I had invested too much to bail.
Full-time - excellent analysis. Yikes!
Newland - I bet these things would rock on easy aid, where you don't need to topstep. But you can't top-step effectively with the adjustable aiders, at least that's how it seemed to me.
Comments, anyone?
I shall conclude this post with an
OPEN LETTER TO METOLIUS:
Written by retired:
Quote:"I e-mailed Metolius with a couple questions about strength and asked if they had any failures of the adjustable daisy and the possibility of demoing the adjustable aider. I recived a curt response that they aren't a retail outlet and if I checked out the aiders in a shop I would see what a great product it is??? No answers to my technical questions at all. So I bought the Yates adjustable daisies and have Yates wall ladders on order. Guess they don't have time to deal with questions when they're making all that money."
Dear Metolius,
I - Dr. Piton - have been promoting your adjustable daisies for the past year. I believe they are ETS, or at least I thought they were.
YOU are the manufacturer, and it sure as hail ain't up to your retailer to be doing your job for you. And your job is to answer technical questions.
I hope that the Boss will speak to whichever Big Wall Theorist made such an inappropriate response to a perfectly legit question, and remind him that the Customer Comes First.
You have already lost one sale. Perhaps you do not care. Perhaps you do not "get it."
But I believe that you do.
You probably realize that the aid climbing forum receives hundreds of page views per week. You probably realize that the WHOLE EN-TAR WORLD [to use the Kentucky-Merricanism] will read this, and know that some BWT at your corporation is either a total chickensh*t, or simply has no frickin' clue. [Perhaps you should re-evaluate this individual?] You probably realize that your
profit margin depends on answering this question.
And if you don't know this, your shareholders do.
The good news is that we in the Aid Climbing Forum are prepared to listen. I have used and promoted your products for quite some time, however I am a salesman, and I believe that you
should offer value-added service. And I believe that this is one of those times.
I believe that the PERFECT PLACE to answer this question would be right here in the Aid Climbing Forum.
The fact that virtually every aid climber in North America reads this forum from time to time should in no way influence what you write. Because you should have written it right the first time.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I believe in second chances.
Note to readers:
Would you please forward this link to Metolius? Some things just look better when they flash on your computer screen.
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tenn_dawg
Feb 6, 2003, 7:13 PM
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Only once have I ever jugged a long pitch with other than the frog system.
I used the damn Yosemite method. It was a long jug too, almost 200 feet free hanging. I just knew that there had to be a better way. I mean JEEZ, I was having to rest after every 7 or 8 jugs near the top.
I didin't hear it from you though. I learned about the croll from another caver who was laughing at my setup.
I did pick up on the bungee cord neck cord from you though. I was using a piece of cord that was always either too loose, or cutting into my neck.
Yes, I am a Caver and I can ascend 200 feet in the dark while singing "Eye of the Tiger" to chase away the hallucinations from the dark.
Fear, Exhaustion, and Dark can do wierd things to somebody.
Travis
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passthepitonspete
Feb 6, 2003, 9:50 PM
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No doubt, eh? Look at me.
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eddie
Feb 22, 2003, 8:12 AM
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hey pete,
i use the yates daisies and they work great. when they begin to slip, GET A NEW PAIR. please do not say that would be more expensive than the traditional aiders.....i have seen your aid rack when we shared "camp 5" at curry village.
the metolious aiders suck cause you can not release them under load.
metolious sucks in general! when i lived in bend, i stopped in a few times for questions and repair. they were unhelpful, or simply un willing to help. i hope this hits them where they will feel it....in the wallet.
eddie
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apollodorus
Feb 22, 2003, 8:39 AM
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RUSSIAN AIDERS:
E-mail Russ Walling, and tell him that you want them. He's the man. If enough people ask him, he'll shift from 3rd to 4th gear, and make them up for everybody.
He has the infrastructure, capability, knowledge and background (his name is "Walling", after all) to get the Russian Aiders out there.
The only sticking point is how much demand, to offset his development time to get them into Real Production. His mind: "What if nobody wants these things?"
Write him, and tell him you're flailing on the Old School strands.
And you want the New School strands.
He'll understand what your're talking about.
And he'll figure, "GEEZ! So many people want 'em, I better get movin' on it . . . . . "
Russ is the PERFECT guy to make up and offer the Russian Aiders for sale. He doesn't have all that Big Corporation inertia to stop him. He da man. He's the only Big Wall Equipment maker who's been on the Walls.
Go HERE and e-mail him:
www.fishproducts.com
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