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rockhugger
Jan 28, 2003, 6:23 AM
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How complicated is multi pitch climbing with three people?
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toobigtoclimb
Jan 28, 2003, 6:26 AM
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It's not too complicated, just much slower.
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zzsean
Jan 28, 2003, 6:37 AM
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It doesn't have to be slower, just use 2 ropes and simultaneously belay both the people on the bottom send.
But you had better know what you are doing in terms of rope management and the like.
Or better yet, just go bouldering.
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kindredlion
Jan 28, 2003, 6:53 AM
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It really depends on the situation.
How long is your route?
Is making the descent in the dark an option?
Have you ever lead on two (twin or double)ropes?
Have you ever belayed two people simultaneously?
You must factor all of this is, as well as your partners abilities, comfort levels and trust in your teams abilities.
Bottom line is, that there is a different answer for your question depending on several variables.
The technical operation of a three man team has the ability to perform faster than a two man depending on the techniques used. Up until the early 90's a three man team was considered necessary for a achieving many of the speed records to date. Some that still stand today.
I, and others would gladly answer your post with more seriousness (go bouldering, sheesh) if you can paint a clearer picture of what it is you would like to know.
For now,
Take Air,
Adam
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rockhugger
Jan 28, 2003, 7:02 AM
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I need to know how to climb with a party of three efficiently and safely.I have done it before but it was kind of awkward.We are supposed to be going to Redrocks.I had planned on doing some of the easier multipitch climbs there.
[ This Message was edited by: rockhugger on 2003-01-27 23:08 ]
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rockhugger
Jan 28, 2003, 7:20 AM
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I climbed using the technique described in Freedom of the hills,page 243.
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diplodocus
Jan 28, 2003, 2:50 PM
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Folk, what's the safe way to belayed two people simultaneously? (appreciate if you could give your response for both an ATC as well as a Reverso)
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shortfatoldguy
Jan 28, 2003, 3:42 PM
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Reverso:
You lead, and set the anchor at the top of the pitch. Hang your Reverso off the main anchor point (*not* a single piece used as a directional) in "auto-block" mode: see here. [Click on the Reverso, and when you get the pop-up, scroll down to the "Technical Notice" link to open the .pdf file for instructions.] You still keep your brake hand on both ropes while you're taking them in at different rates and times, but you have the auto-block feature to back you up.
Note well: as per the destructions, the load strands go on top. Otherwise, your partner is seriously hosed.
The Trango B-52 works in a similar fashion, but you need to hang the device by two lockers, instead of one, if you're belaying two climbers.
Note also that if you have to lower your second, you need to know how to rig a simple block and tackle system to un-block the auto-block. The American Mountain Guides Assoc. site as a great instructional page on this.
So climbing with three doesn't have to be super slow.
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calpolyclimber
Jan 28, 2003, 7:29 PM
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I have not done the simultaneous belaying method, but I have done a multipitch with 3 people (alright, it was only 2 pitches). We just used two ropes in this mannor: Leader climbs as usual, belayed by the second. Second climbs/cleans (belayed by leader) trailing a second rope, tied into harness as usual, with the third tied into the other end of the trailing rope. The second then belays the third up the pitch. This worked very well for us, did not require us to have a Reverso (nothing against them, we just don't have one), and really was not very time consuming at all. What saved it for us was that we kept the ropes VERY organized at the belay station. As rope was taken in, it was layed across our legs, coiled, and hung from the anchor. Rope management is what will make or break this multipitch setup (or any setup, for that matter).
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newland
Jan 28, 2003, 8:01 PM
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speaking from a victim's point of view... Don't go on popular climbs and please have the courtesy to allow others to pass. Especially if you belay your seconds separately.
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gekko
Jan 28, 2003, 8:49 PM
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When my partners and I have done three on a multipitch, the leader began and then belayed the second, who trailed a second rope and cleaned, passed off the trailed rope to the previous leader, then went right into the second pitch. That puts a climber at the first two belay stations, the one at the first belays the third up and then cleans the second pitch, passes the second rope to the belayer, and continues up the third pitch. Then the belayer at the first station climbs up. Basically two climbers swing leads and the third TR's.
This is NOT the most efficient way to go about a multipitch with three climbers, I know, but this way there will only be one or two people at a belay station at a time, not all three, until you top out.
Whatever you decide to do, always research and plan before hand with new techniques, make sure you are comfortable and don't do anything that doesn't feel safe.
[ This Message was edited by: gekko on 2003-01-28 12:52 ]
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rprp
Jan 28, 2003, 9:30 PM
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You can do some of this stuff fairly quickly, but most people are very slow when they first try it. So stick with a shorter, easier, climb that is also easy to get off of. Best would be one that you rap down the route.
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bradhill
Jan 28, 2003, 9:38 PM
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You should look carefully at the nature of the climb before deciding to simul-belay the seconds. If there is a traverse with any runouts or sketchy gear involved go one at a time and don't dismantle or detatch the last climber from the lower belay anchor until the traverse is done.
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topher
Jan 28, 2003, 9:41 PM
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ive been told that on alipe (big ones) this is how it is done. because some leads can take a long time.
climber climbs,
belayer belays.
third person eats and make food for others.
then when the climber is at the top he she fixes the rope and the third starts ot jumare up it well they are doing that the belayer is taking apart the bottem (old) ancoure and then also starts to jumar up. well the 2 are coming up the climber at the top is getting every thing set up when the first jumarer (now with all pro that was in wall) takes the rack and starts leading. third (old belayer is now eating and making food if neaded or organizing gear or hauling or somthing like that) ive been told that this is the fastest way to do big alpine climbs with three, because every one is always doing somthing and every thing is done as soon as the climber has fished the pitch.
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drector
Jan 28, 2003, 9:41 PM
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Just did this for the first time on Sunday. We all gathered at the top of the first pitch then the second pitch leader trailed both ropes then belayed two of us on a reverso. We didn't do this opn all pitches since the one person was highly qualified and had extensive experience guiding like this. If we were all qualified then we could simul-second on all the pitches using two ropes and climbing 15-20 feet apart.
Make sure you know exactly how to, and have experience belaying two seconds on easy terrain before attempting difficult terrain.
Dave
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rrrADAM
Jan 28, 2003, 10:18 PM
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I have done this numerous times, and even took 4 other people up the 3 pitch Commitment 5.9 in Yosemite, and took two others up the ultra classic 7 pitch Third Pillar of Dana Mountain 5.10b.
Choosing a belay that will allow the others is key.
Since I normally lead, all my beta is for one person leading, but just tweak a bit for "leap-frogging the leads"...
Lead as usual, set up belay anchor with room for two and ropes. Belay second, having them remove all gear but directionals if needed. When second gets to belay station, have them belay the third while reracking gear for next lead. If the third climbs quickly, they will arrive at the same time the leader is racked and ready to go, meaning 3 can climb in the same time as two.
One tip is to pile the ropes on top of each other, then switch ends so the leader is on the thirds's end, as that will now be on top, and others tie in accordingly. This means you don't have to reflake the rope.
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no_limit
Jan 28, 2003, 10:27 PM
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[small]This topic was moved to the General forum by no_limit[/small]
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murf
Jan 28, 2003, 10:55 PM
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The method described by Adam is used more often than not in rockclimbing situations. Devices that allow for belaying two follows by hanging off the power point of an anchor have become popular of late ( gi-gi, reverso, and B-52 ), but don't seem to commonly used in this configuration as yet. The advanced knowledge needed to lower a second with a Reverso, for instance, is enough to disqualify it for many folks.
Normally folks just climb serially, with the person with the least experience in the middle. Obviously this takes longer, but is IMHO safer, especially for the beginner.
Murf
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diplodocus
Jan 29, 2003, 3:22 AM
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what do you do (while simul-belaying 2 seconds) when one second cannot overcome a crux and has to be lowered. If I use a reverso, he is "auto-locked", how do you lower him?
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shortfatoldguy
Jan 29, 2003, 3:51 AM
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Lowering the second off a Reverso in auto-block mode.
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adirondakclimber
Jan 29, 2003, 4:17 AM
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do you need to have thinner ropes to use the reverso?
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apollodorus
Jan 29, 2003, 4:28 AM
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If the climb is well within the limits of all three, you can do it "Alpine Style". I met two Italian guys at the summit of El Capitan, and they were going to do Snake Dike on Half Dome two days later. They offered to let me go with them. This is how it worked:
We had one rope and used locking biners instead of tie-in knots. One guy would lead (we traded off), and then belay the other two up as they simul-seconded. We tied figure-8 knots in the ends of the rope, and another one about twenty feet from the bottom. The secret was to have the last guy keep pace with the second so there was never any slack in the rope.
On an easy climb like Snake Dike, it worked great. We did the route from base to summit in about three hours. Coming down the cables was much more dangerous and scary, due to the number of people there.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-01-29 07:27 ]
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diplodocus
Jan 29, 2003, 2:06 PM
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thanks "shortfatoldguy", very useful info
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shortfatoldguy
Jan 29, 2003, 2:35 PM
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adirondakguy: No. In fact, very thin ropes (8mm) can cause problems. See the technical notice and supplement on the website, linked on the previous page. Also do a search here or a Google search to discover the nature of the problem w/very skinny ropes; I think the ropes can get stuck in the device when the second falls onto the device in auto-block mode. Maybe some ice climbers around here will chime in and refresh our collective memory.
[edit]
[ This Message was edited by: shortfatoldguy on 2003-01-29 06:38 ]
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diplodocus
Jan 29, 2003, 5:06 PM
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shortfatoldguy : do I need 2 brake biners if i am doing simul-belay of two followers? If its only one biner, what happens when one follower needs to be lowered and the other continue climbing. How do you do a weighted transition for only one of the two ropes?
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