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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 8:55 AM
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I am not long on RC.com but I 've seen this attitude from several people...
The thing is that climbing, mountaineering, canoeying, hiking and all these outdoors "-ings" are becoming increasingly popular and anavoidably idiots will be in them too. Now, these are activities with inherent danger. Some people, might fail to realise that because they are "idiots".
Even then though, I am not the guy how would ever say. "Why care? He deserved that, he was an idiot" or "he was a madman, I dont feel sorry about him"
I wonder how many of you share this opinion...
It migt seem a bit retorical, but I ve seen it, around...
Actually it would make an interesting poll...
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funktimonious
Jan 28, 2003, 9:02 AM
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You wrote a lot for not saying anything.
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josephine
Jan 28, 2003, 9:19 AM
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Can you please explain what you mean with what you wrote above?You said many things but i didn't get your point!
Penny
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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 9:52 AM
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my point is that you cant say for someone "that he deserved to die because he did stupid things while climbing"
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redpoint73
Jan 28, 2003, 11:36 AM
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I still don't think anyone has any idea what you are talking about.
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vertical_planar
Jan 28, 2003, 12:24 PM
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ok i quit
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mattiem
Jan 28, 2003, 12:33 PM
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I got what he meant, he was saying that in a lot of posts when someone new says something dumb, or when an accident report is posted about someone dying, there are a lot of posters who say stuff like,"He deserved to die he was dumb" and "I don't feel bad he was dumb and didnt know what he was doing" He was saying he doesn not share this sentiment bu that it is the attitude of many on RC.com. I think he was interested in why people felt this was and how many people felt this way.
hope that helps
matt
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duracellbunny
Jan 28, 2003, 12:40 PM
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Nobody deserves to die......
What you have said it is really sad
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danl
Jan 28, 2003, 12:42 PM
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I think your statment falls under two catagories and both are worth examining.
The first is of the proud amateur. In many cases people undertake a sport like rock climbing without proper instruction and get themselves into trouble. Often times this is regarded as stupidity, often it is simply one being naieve or ignorant. In the past people forging new directions unprepared were called pioneers.
The other class is at the opposite end of the spectrum the well honed extremist. For example, the person that goes out and solos the eiger. I think that many people say "x deserved it" because they do not understand the motivations of said person. Those who condem these actions don't seem to understand the ROI involved because they hold certain values too close.
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mustclimb69
Jan 28, 2003, 1:07 PM
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I think I get it!!
Nobody deserves to die. What frusterates me and many other climbers is when lack of attention to detail and being careless leads to injury or a close call. we all make mistakes. Where calling people idiots comes in is when the "idiots" laugh or brag about their close call.
Am i close?.?
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nadroj
Jan 28, 2003, 1:20 PM
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I agree that know body deserves to die.
I think the reason that there are so many posts saying thing like “he was stupid he deserved it” is that it distances us from the death. Every time we go “on rope” we are taking risks, it is much easier to say “he was being stupid and made a mistake” than to say “what if that was me? I almost made a mistake like that last time I climbed”.
Watching some die is not a pleasant experience but it is easier to deal with if you distance yourself in such a way.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Any shrinks out there want to give there opinion?
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koko
Jan 28, 2003, 2:21 PM
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well, I'm not a shrink, but... Climbing, or any sport for that matter, can be done very safely while still pushing the extremes (i.e. 5.14). one can still be motivated in whatever way to do crazy things. BUT IT CAN BE SAFE. therefore, i am one of those people who say, "what a dumbass", because there is tons of good gear out there to protect yourself with and there is no need to go courting with death. i could go on but i think i've said enough...
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hoppinbig
Jan 28, 2003, 2:22 PM
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How do people die canoeing? When did this become an 'extreme' sport?
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flynnypek
Jan 28, 2003, 2:39 PM
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Nobody deserves to die because he did a mistake... that's sad
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sportster
Jan 28, 2003, 2:41 PM
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Ok I consider myself an amateur, however I am a freak about safety. I check and double check everyone in my group when we go climbing, I even check the people that taught me how to climb. However, even though I see other people do some pretty dumb and unsafe things, I dont walk by an say how dumb they are, rather I will get their attention and let them know what they are doing wrong, even if they get pissed at me. Most people realize their mistake and are thankful. Nobody deserves to die, and if any of you ever see me doing something unsafe, I want you to scream at me and let me know the right way to do things. After all Im still an amateur and we all make mistakes.
Anyways, that was my two cents.
Eric
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texasclimbers
Jan 28, 2003, 2:44 PM
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Quote:How do people die canoeing? When did this become an 'extreme' sport?
did you ever see Deliverance?
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mustclimb69
Jan 28, 2003, 2:48 PM
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Canoeing, you could die of an infected splinter in the hand. I had one that hurt a lot once...but i sucked itup and pulled that bi**h out.
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lemurboy
Jan 28, 2003, 2:51 PM
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One thing that I like to say to those ppl that you run into at the crag that are doing things totally wrong, is
do you know that your anchor is gonna blow if you take any sort of fall on it, you know that tiny tree root isnt really enough.
And then I get the reply well who the hell are you to say this?
and I say well im just the guy who will have to clean up the mess you make when your body crushes against those shape pointy rocks below you.
And by that time they usually get the picture.
or i take off running pretending never to have meet the guy.
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mhr2000
Jan 28, 2003, 3:13 PM
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"Hey y'all watch this"
"Bet you I can"
If death follows either of these statements, they probably had it coming. I don't believe death is ever deserved, but a good bruising may knock some sense in to them.
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hoppinbig
Jan 28, 2003, 3:20 PM
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This one time, at band camp we were all canoeing and this boat came by and almost knocked us all in the water and we almost drowned and stuff....
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gypsy
Jan 28, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I just think it is actually good when an idiot gets hurt doing something stupid...this may prevent him/her from doing it again in the future, or injuring someone else due to stupidity...
Ignorance (thinking they are doing it right, but being new to the sport and haven't quite got it yet),on the other hand, is a forigivable mistake and hopefully accidents due to this are learned from as well...
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danl
Jan 28, 2003, 4:29 PM
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Yes there is lots of good gear out there.. but you must understand there is a great reward from climbing light and fast or soloing and that is something that is very personal and not many people understand and because they don;t understand it they put it down.
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w6jxm
Jan 28, 2003, 4:48 PM
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While that may be true, how many people to you hear that die or get hurt from free soloing. Now compare that to the people who think they know what they are doing and boulder too high, set up a TR wrong, clip in wrong (ie. non locking crab between the rope and harness)fall on the approach, and all the other stupid things. Now experience can lead to complacency where you might no double check something as throughly as you would have when starting, but that is not the same as doing something stupid out of ignorance. It sometimes seems that abundance of gear can lead to lazyness in beginners because they figure if they get enough stuff then they will be safer (learning trad with cams instead of good placement of nuts). While no one deserves to die because in ignorance, it does not mean that it is not inevitable. Although this is something that we just have to accept, we do have an obligation to do our best to educate those who are the most prone to mistakes. Which is all of us.
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gakin
Jan 28, 2003, 5:06 PM
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Although I do not believe that anybody dies from making a mistake, there is a flip side to that coin. This is by nature a dangerous sport, and can kill you, but if the proper safty precautions are taken, it is pretty safe. IMO, the best thing is education. If you are at the crag, or the gym as far as that goes, and you notice that somebody is doing something that can cause an anchor failure, or not tied in correctly, ect, polietly let them know, and go on your way.
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antimatter
Jan 28, 2003, 5:06 PM
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I've become pretty jaded towards the idiots. You hear things like, "Oh yeah, it's not doubled back because I don't do that at the gym" or "Dude, it's your first time climbing and you just free-soloed to set the anchor. Good job." That last one I head from a climber with years of experience who had setup two TR climbs at Feudal wall. BOTH TR's consisted of a 2 foot piece of webbing tied with a water knot to ONE bolt mid-route. The bolts weren't nice Rawl 5 piece either, they were nail-ins probably placed 10-15 years ago. There was no carabiner, just the rope running over the (not even climbspec) webbing. One of his "new" climbing partners was very overweight. It's a miracle they didn't melt through the webbing while lowering. To top that off, he just left the webbing in place when they were done. Nice.
Now, I was mid-route while all this was transpiring, but I did admonish him for tying off the bolt. His response, "Oh, well that's the first time I have ever done that. I never do it." So, he knows it's wrong! This guy has seen the warnings, been advised to seek proper instruction every time he's bought a piece of climbing gear. I mean, what should I do, beat him over the head? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish harm on anyone. HOWEVER, to answer the question, Yes, this idiot does deserve to die. He's been warned time and time again. He's ignored the warnings, tell me why, please God, tell me why he does not deserve to die.
[ This Message was edited by: antimatter on 2003-01-28 09:09 ]
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