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manacubus
Feb 3, 2003, 3:54 AM
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Wallhaulers are rated to about 100kg. They can probably hold a bit more, but as we know, much more force than this could be placed on the device while on the wall (a couple of bodies vs. a couple of stout sows). This scares me.
Has anyone heard of one failing?
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apollodorus
Feb 3, 2003, 4:13 AM
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The Petzl Pro Traxion and Mini Traxion are both rated for 2.5 kN on each side of the rope, and 5 kN at the belay locker. That's about 560 lbs of man vs. 560 lbs of pig (actually less, because of friction of the pig against the rock). So, they are rated for double-sow duty. They're rated to break at 10 and 11 kN on each side, with 20 or 22 kN at the belay locker.
The Bonatti Kong Block is the best thing out there, though. It's heavy, but is strong enough for rescue duty. It's rated for loads of 10 kN, or something. The larger pulley produces less friction on the rope, too.
PTPP HATES IT WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THE URL VISIBLE. PLEASE FIX ALL LINKS SO THAT THEY LOOK LIKE PLAIN, BLUE TEXT. THNX.
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-04 15:55 ]
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manacubus
Feb 3, 2003, 4:19 AM
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I do appreciate the info on the other devices apollodorus, however I'm talking specifically about the Petzl Wallhauler. Anybody manage to bust one?
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andyk
Feb 3, 2003, 9:01 AM
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I cam close to breaking on El Cap a few years back. I was carrying 60 litres of water and two weeks food food, and the bags weighed over 300lbs! I was hauling the gear on a 9.4mm dynamic which shrunk down to about 7mm underload. Firstly the rope started sliping under the load, probably due to rope becoming so thin, then the plate that raps around the cam began to bend under the pressure, forcing me to hammer it back under loads (yikes). After that first haul I split the bags and hauled on two lines (I may be old fashioned but I find this quicker then the Chongo ratchit).
Since then I've been using the Traction pullleys and been more carefully about the total loads in my bags.
Andy
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apollodorus
Feb 3, 2003, 11:50 AM
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OH! The Wallhauler. I thought you meant WALL PULLEYS! Like the Pro Traxion.
That Wallhauler's a piece of junk. You can see from the link to Petzl, that it's rated at a measly 90 kg (883 N, or 198 lb.)
PTPP has one of those, and uses it for his 2:1 Chongo Ratchet.
Geez. Now that I think of it, we used one of those to haul the second bag on both the Excalibur and Scorched Earth trips.
And I was SPACE HAULING off a 198 lb. device??? Good thing I only weigh 147 pounds.
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zetedog
Feb 3, 2003, 6:13 PM
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I recently emailed Petzl with very similar questions. They did a pretty god job of making sure that I knew the rating differences between what the Cam can hold versus what the pulley can hold.
I don't have the email if front of me, but here is what I remember:
The CAM is only rated o a working load of ~200 pounds, failing above ~500 (485 I think is the exact number).
The pulley is stronger. It is the P50 pulley without the triangular biner hole at the top. It is rated to 4kn working, and I want to say around 30 KN breaking, but I could be wrong.
I know that when I compared the two, the pulley is stronger on the wallhauer versus the Pro-traxion, but the cam is weaker.
On a side note, Rockexotica sold the design to Petzl, who is now currently leasing the patent to FIXE climbing equipment (located in spain, does some of Petzl's machining) They directed me to them for purchase. Barrabes has one on their site. Haven't purchased the FIXE model, so I can't comment.
[ This Message was edited by: zetedog on 2003-02-03 10:14 ]
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passthepitonspete
Feb 4, 2003, 9:36 PM
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The Wall Hauler is a piece of junk. I own three of the damn things.
I used to need two - one for 1:1 hauling or for the holding ratchet on my 2:1, and one for the inverted compound pulley on my Far End Hauler. The former I carried with me, and used to pull up my Solo Tag Rack. I still use a Wall Hauler to pull up my tag rack when soloing.
In the fall of 2001, the Wall Hauler I bought in 1995 and used for perhaps fifteen walls was worn out. The teeth on the cam had had it, and it would no longer grip the rope. I never use a dynamic rope for hauling, because that is too much work, and I am far too lazy.
Of course Andy's 2:1 didn't work - it will not work on dynamic rope! Especially under the huge loads we soloists like to drag up behind us.
If Andy had used a static haul line, and had practised and fine-tuned his 2:1, he would have found it a bit easier than making two 1:1 hauls. But this takes a LOT of practice. More than one wall, probably. It took me about three walls. Now the thing sings for me.
I say a bit easier, because if you have only one compound pulley, you will be farting around moving your two haul lines between a single device. It is for that reason I make only a single haul when soloing. I wouldn't bring an extra static haul line.
If you did have two compound pulleys, then two 1:1 hauls would in fact be easier than one 2:1 haul [they] - but of course, you need an extra haul line.
My Kong Roll Block is so bitchin', that I was doing 1:1 hauling WAY SOONER than I could have had I been using a Wall Hauler or Traxion. Simply frickin' a-MAY-zing!
Conclusions:
Do NOT buy a Wall Hauler - it's junk
DO make the effort to find, and DO spend the extra twenty or thirty bucks, to get a Kong Roll Block
If you already have one of these things, use it for your Far End Hauler or for pulling up your solo tag rack, both of which are solo applications only
If you are climbing with a partner, and you have one Wall Hauler and one Roll Block, use the Kong device on the heavier load
Oh yeah, so how did Dr. Piton end up with three pieces of junk?
He was ready to pull all his gear up Zed-Em, and his Wall Hauler wouldn't grip. Richard [spike] happened by, and sold him his own Wall Hauler, thus sparing the doc an agonizing walk down to the Mountain Shop and back again.
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iamthewallress
Feb 4, 2003, 11:20 PM
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I've had the same experience w/ the cam on an old Wallhauler allowing slippage over time.
Here's another caveat for the Petzl Protraxion. The cam has no guard to keep the rope running downward and not outwards from the pulley. This means that when you are hauling from the back of a ledge and need to move yourself backwards instead of downwards, the cam will not always reengage. I've taken a few 10-15 foot sprints back to the wall with one of these.
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passthepitonspete
Feb 5, 2003, 12:39 AM
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I'm not sure, Melissa, if you sound like a yo-yo bouncing off the pavement, or if you're like one of those spring loaded dog leashes where you press the button and the leash comes zipping back too fast and whacks you in the wrist.
[PTPP hates it when a link is 57 characters wide, because it requires extra work to read the post]
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spike
Feb 5, 2003, 3:02 AM
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Hi Pete,
I agree with Pete, don't purchase the Petzl Wall Hauler. I remember when Pete's Petzl Wall Hauler gave out on him when he was trying to haul up a tremendous amount of gear on Zed-Em. We made a deal and I sold him my Petzl Wall Hauler. I ended up at the Curry Village Mountain Shop later that day. Chongo was in the Mountain Shop tying knots and discussing the benefits with a guy behind the counter. I asked to look at the Petzl Wall Hauler --- Chongo spoke up and said "if you want a better hauler get the Pro-Traxion". I purchased it. It is easier to use than the Petzl Wall Hauler and solid. I have also purchased the Mini-Traxion and use it when I set up my Far-End-Haul System.
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karlbaba
Feb 5, 2003, 6:03 AM
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I wouldn't buy a wall hauler now but I happen to have one and I'm too cheap to throw tons of money around when the dang thing works fine.
Something to be aware of though, if you clip the wrong shaped biner on the bottom end of a wall-hauler to weight it to keep it oriented vertically, the cam will rub on the biner and not catch the haul line. (like a biner with a fin or sharp corner)
I solved this by hanging a short perlon loop though the metal loop at the bottom and clip a few big cams on it when I haul
Peace
Karl
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copperhead
Feb 5, 2003, 6:04 AM
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Quote:
The Wall Hauler is a piece of junk. I own three of the damn things.
And that is why you hang all of your haulbags (huge load) on the cam of a Wall Hauler? What up Pete? I thought you preached “The Better Way”…?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=8346
What is the difference between using the unit on the top or bottom of your haul-line (with respect to the cam)?
The Wall Hauler is not a “piece of junk”. If used properly, the Wall Hauler is a great tool. If used incorrectly, it can spill your beans (multiple references intended). Spilling your beans is a very bad thing.
Quote:
I'm not sure, Melissa, if you sound like a yo-yo bouncing off the pavement, or if you're like one of those spring loaded dog leashes where you press the button and the leash comes zipping back too fast and whacks you in the wrist.
Pete, you are the biggest yo-yo I have ever come across. Your attitude is spring-loaded. “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. Leashes have their way…
If I press the right button, you will go away.
Too bad her bf can climb circles around you. You might even take a lesson from Melissa in being humble (maybe I could too).
On the more informative side,
I have been shown remnants of haul lines, shredded by the cam on a Wall Hauler when loaded with too large a load, by those who were forced to bail from the Big Stone.
Ps – why do you need a third pulley for the 2:1 system? Is three feet of rope too heavy to pull through a biner?
Note: The pulley + micro ascender system allows for greater angles of hauling (angle of pull w/ respect to the surface of rock that the anchors are attached to) than does a specific ‘compound pulley’. A two-part hauling system can also be set-up to haul from either side of the pulley.
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twrock
Feb 5, 2003, 8:59 AM
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Tom, according to an internet gear retailer, the Kong Block Roll is rated at 5 kn at the cam. This is (quite logically) similar to the rating of most ascenders.
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2003-02-05 01:00 ]
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copperhead
Feb 5, 2003, 9:08 AM
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Quote:
PTPP HATES IT WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THE URL VISIBLE. PLEASE FIX ALL LINKS SO THAT THEY LOOK LIKE PLAIN, BLUE TEXT. THNX.
Is this a new edit, due to my improper html format? Sorry, I was lazy, al la “The Better Lazy Way”.
WTFC what PTPP hates.
Click it or don’t click it. I could care less.
-------
Ps- Re. your link: Thanks for proving my point. The lead-line backup only backs-up the cord-o-let (here we go again on the spelling of this stringer-thingy tie-off contraption) and not the rest of the hauling mechanism. The King Kong Block is not needed.
[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2003-02-05 01:16 ]
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apollodorus
Feb 5, 2003, 9:37 AM
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PTPP likes the posts and replies to be clean, that's all. His grasp of HTML is pretty good, and he expects others to aspire to the same level.
I was a smart-ass in that post, because he admonished me to "fix" the link.
I couldn't care one way or the other, either.
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twrock
Feb 5, 2003, 9:43 AM
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You know, regarding the far end hauler pic ( http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=8346 ), I can't figure out the value in having a swivel in the system. If things start spinning, isn't that loose end of the haul line just going to twist around everything anyway? What am I missing here?
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apollodorus
Feb 5, 2003, 10:30 AM
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That swivel will keep your rope from twisting around.
A Case In Point: my ledge is totally ghetto, and not the Better Way. It'd wrenched itself into a half-taco halfway up Scorched Earth after hitting roof after roof after roof.
The wind thought it was some sort of Perpetual Motion Machine: it kept spinning, and spinning and spinning. It was like some sort of kite, recently released from Bellevue.
Basically, the upper part of the ledge saw clean air, while the lower part saw a pig. The upper part over-ruled the lower, and it turned around and around and around as it hung in free space.
Without the swivel, the rope would have been reduced to the Devil's Pretzel, a wall nightmare that no mortal can attack and live to tell.
(Now that I think of it, the swivel was on PTPP's pig. My pig was just tied in. So he had to unwrap the Devil's Pretzel when he hauled my bag. No wonder he decided to drop it off the wall later.)
[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-05 02:33 ]
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twrock
Feb 5, 2003, 5:06 PM
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I dunno, Tom. Did you have another look at the picture I linked?
No matter how I play out the scenario, the loose end of the haul line (the bottom end stuffed into a rope bag and sitting on top of one of the pigs) is going to start to twist around the haul bag straps. If the haul bags spin and the haul line above the swivel stays put, it's going to twist up. If the bags stay put and the haul line spins, it's going to twist. In a sense, the haul line is "attached" both above and below the swivel (because it is sitting in a bag tucked or likely even clipped into the haulbag straps).
Maybe I'm having a "slow" moment here, but I can't seem to find a way the setup as shown avoids this potential. (Or maybe nothing is going to spin and nothing will twist, but then of course you don't even need a swivel.)
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twrock
Feb 6, 2003, 3:23 AM
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Quote:The CAM is only rated o a working load of ~200 pounds, failing above ~500 (485 I think is the exact number).
Quote:I have been shown remnants of haul lines, shredded by the cam on a Wall Hauler when loaded with too large a load, by those who were forced to bail from the Big Stone.
Is the low strength rating on the cam of the Wallhauler due to the possibility of cam housing bending open because it is a weaker material or because it shreds rope at a lower load due to cam design? I had always thought it was the weak housing, but recent information makes me wonder.
(ignoring the pulleys for the moment) It seems all of Petzl's testing/ratings on the Traxions and ascenders are related to rope failure, not to cam/housing failure. It seems the cams can exert sufficient force to damage the rope before the cam/housing will fail. Is this the case with the Wallhauler as well, or is the weakness in the cam/housing design?
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manacubus
Feb 6, 2003, 6:25 AM
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Good question! Anyone?
I am heartened to hear that it's the cam (or rope??) that will fail and not the pulley in the Wallhauler.
This being the case, it should be safe to space haul a bodyweight bag. Yes? What do you reckon?
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tim
Feb 6, 2003, 6:38 AM
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Quote:
This being the case, it should be safe to space haul a bodyweight bag. Yes? What do you reckon?
I reckon you ought to call Petzl and ask them if the device really is rated for such a load, prior to sending your bodyweight pig for the ride. I own a Wall Hauler and have been somewhat reticent about shock loading it, but it may be that I am just a wuss.
Also, on a side note,
Quote:
PTPP hates it when a link is 57 characters wide, because it requires extra work to read the post
this has to be the absolute zenith of hypocrisy. Watch as the scrollbar thingy shrinks up to nothing, thanks to Pete's penchant for writing the Great Canadian Novel every time he has a 2-step process to illustrate. Tell me that isn't hard to read.
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2003-02-05 22:41 ]
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copperhead
Feb 6, 2003, 10:13 AM
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