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sprocket
Feb 3, 2003, 3:36 PM
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Is an onsite/onsight, a route redpointed with out any beta or a route redpointed with beta , but never climbed it or seen any body climb it before?Did Sharma redpoint Biotop14a with any beta?
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clymber
Feb 3, 2003, 3:44 PM
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a onsight is walking upto a climb and climbing the route with no knowledge of any sort on the routewith out hanging or falling on it....so ppl say its still a onsight if you climb part way then down climb to the ground and start over...they say its a onsite since you didnt rest on the rope but to me it no longer is because now youhavesome knowledge of the route... to me it doesnt really matter if its a onsite or not as long as im having fun and im outside
as for the Sharma part of thequestion i have no clues so cant help you on that one ...sorry
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redpoint73
Feb 3, 2003, 3:48 PM
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An on-sight is a lead ascent without any previous knowledge, beta, or seeing anyone else climb it. You can look at the route or touch the holds from the ground, and any guidebook info is fair game. Otherwise, you're on your own.
If you get any beta from other climbers, or watch anyone climb it, but you have never been on the route, then it is a flash.
I don't know about BioTop either.
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rrrADAM
Feb 3, 2003, 4:08 PM
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You only get one shot at an "onsight" since it only applies to the first time you attempted it with no prior knowledge. Redpoints can have an endless amount of attempts.
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lox
Feb 3, 2003, 4:22 PM
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Onsight is a term that sportclimbers came up with so they could differentiate between more and less pure ascents.
If you ever claim to have "onsighted" something, you can expect someone to jump down your throat and grill you about WHO you talked to about the climb, WHAT they said and HOW it was presented, so they can either validate your ascent or gleefully inform you that you didn't climb the climb in the style you claim.
It should not be a surprise to you that these same people derive some sort of maligned satisfaction from climbing on cliffs but never QUITE standing on top of these cliffs.
Buy a crashpad and go flash something.
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madriver
Feb 3, 2003, 9:44 PM
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Topping out is overated..!! I don't think you can touch holds from any position prior to your start or have prior beta knowledge from a book or person. This is all trivial. It does impress some if you "Onsight" a route especially a difficult send. Lox...as you can see..is very impressed by sport climbing and "onsight sends".
"Climb it you can"
MR
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misha
Feb 4, 2003, 1:38 AM
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redpoint is wrong, It does not matter where the beta came from. There could be whole page devoted to a route and it would still count as an onsight if you read the page? But if a friend tells you to watch yourself around the second bolt, that is not an onsite?
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antimatter
Feb 4, 2003, 1:58 AM
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Quote:
if a friend tells you to watch yourself around the second bolt, that is not an onsite?
It's not an onsight, you've gotten information about the climb. It could be a flash (onsight with beta) or a redpoint if you didn't get it the first time but climbed it clean the second time.
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flying_dutchman
Feb 4, 2003, 2:19 AM
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so let me get this straight. You cannot look at a guide book or let a friend tell you about a climb. How do you find or hear about the climb that you supposely wanna onsite yet never have heard about or seen? You simply walk through the forest and stumble upon it?
What a load of bullsh1t. You can use a guide book; besides, most guidebooks are worthless when it comes to details about a climb itself. I use em to find a climb, thats about it.
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madriver
Feb 4, 2003, 3:03 AM
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Using a guide book to locate a climb is not beta. If the guide book tells you where the crux is or where the holds are, I.E route map or topo, thats beta.
O.K ? and relax...or take a nap..!!
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mhr2000
Feb 4, 2003, 3:16 AM
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If I understand this right you can't even SEE someone else climb it?
Wonder how many fights have occured between friends to see who has to belay first and give up their onsight chance. Is there some kind of ritual like flipping a biner or something to see who goes first?
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madriver
Feb 4, 2003, 3:26 AM
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Correct..
In comp climbing it's called Iso or isolation. None of the competitors can watch another climb. So ..if you want to "On Sight" find a belay slave..!! Better yet..just climb and don't worry be happy..
Be there or be nose hair..
MR
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misha
Feb 4, 2003, 5:03 AM
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your not allowed to look at the climb before you touch the rock either. you have to stare at your feet until you start climbing.
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lox
Feb 4, 2003, 5:07 AM
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And someone who has previously sent must come along and clean all the chalk off the holds.
lol.
Quote:It's not an onsight, you've gotten information about the climb. It could be a flash (onsight with beta) or a redpoint if you didn't get it the first time but climbed it clean the second time.
Says the sportclimber in response to "what if my partner told me to 'watch myself around the second bolt'."
LOL.
Friggin' classic.
Hey. Adopt the steep limestone ethic: flash or no flash. Get all the info you can.
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antimatter
Feb 4, 2003, 5:13 AM
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Quote:
And someone who has previously sent must come along and clean all the chalk off the holds.
TOTALLY!
Ever climb right after all the chalk is washed away? A little different, no?
BTW, I do sport climb but 75% of my recent climbing has been trad.
[ This Message was edited by: antimatter on 2003-02-03 21:14 ]
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camhead
Feb 4, 2003, 5:13 AM
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I was kind of bummed in a lame sort of way yesterday while climbing in Oklahoma. There was a really cool short hard crack route that I wanted to onsight, but I happened to glance over and SEE another climber hangdogging his way up it.
Sooo... I lost my onsight, right? I should have diverted my eyes, but oh well. I did the route anyway, onsight, flash, redpoint, clean, whatever. Oh, and Lox– I topped out too!!!
heehee.
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phugganut
Feb 4, 2003, 6:33 AM
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Who F-ing cares if you see somebody climbing it or if your buddy tells you to "watch it around that second bolt?" I mean, are people so caught up with egos and semantics and outdoing other people that they forget about the joy of climbing? If sopmeone thinks that a climb I do is less valid or less cool or less anything b/c I saw someone climb it first, then it says a lot more about their own issues than it does about my lack of climbing skills. Ugh. Onsight or flash? Who cares- just climb!
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redpoint73
Feb 4, 2003, 2:45 PM
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You're right, it really doesn't matter if you don't want it too. Its like the rules of any sport or game, its your choice whether to follow them or not. If someone questions the validity of your "on-sight", who really cares?
The main reason the differentiation is made is because a climb can often be MUCH easier if you see someone else do the moves. Or if someone tells you about a mistake they made, and it keeps you from making the same mistake, it can make the climb significantly easier. On-sighting means that you had the brains/savvy to figure out the right sequence on your own, or the brawn to fix your mistakes or climb past them when you DO make mistakes.
Obviously, you ARE allowed to look at the guidebook. Otherwise, how are you going ot find the climb? Most guidebooks don't give much beta, aside from bolt count, description needed to find a climb and safety information (loose death flake, etc.). A guidebook is not going to have a whole page devoted to one climb. A guidebook author usually will not give too much away, for the sole purpose of not ruining on-sights. But some guidebooks have been controversial or critisized for revealing too much.
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mattiem
Feb 4, 2003, 3:56 PM
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Yeah redpoint,
Although you know that the rumney guidebook can give away a LOT of info, especially about hidden holds. He loves telling you about the hidden holds. Other then that everyone is being dumb, if you can't look at the guide book how the heck do you know what you are climbing. Maybe we need to hire someone to read the guide for us so we can find the climbs without reading beta and accidently blowing all our onsights.
hehehe
matt
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misha
Feb 4, 2003, 11:41 PM
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what im saying is that i dont see the big deal about onsight vrs. redpoint, i personally feel no difference in feeling of satisfaction if i flash something.
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lox
Feb 5, 2003, 9:01 PM
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Misha.. that is really too bad. Flashing something is should be a total rush. Unless the climb is way below your max limit, a flash means you can either watch or hear how to climb something and translate that to your own body (with adjustments if necessary) or it means that you have developed excellent problem solving skills.
Either way, it means you are tenacious to hold on the first time you pull off the ground. And it means you can CLIMB A LOT MORE !!!11 You know... since everything that only takes 1 try leaves more tries for other stuff.
Flashing (or onsighting) is a good game. I think that my main problem stems from all the ambiguity surrounding "on-sight" as "valid."
There are many cases where topos, chalk and a note in the guidebook can be way more helpful than watching someone bust a dropknee on microfeet 75 above you.
Anyway... if you do want to play the onsight game, you should mos def get into the flash game FIRST and then work towards beta-less flash... and be honest about your style. That is most important.
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cerikpete
Feb 5, 2003, 9:38 PM
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I agree with Lox. First, be honest about what you did. Second, on-sighting is a natural step in your progression as a climber.
When I climb my first route on a grade, always by hangdogging, I feel good. But the next step is to do the route cleanly (redpoint). Next, see if I can do other routes with the same grade (sometimes redpointing, sometimes not). Finally, on-sighting a route with that grade.
That's the order of my climbing, and I feel the best once I know I can on-sight a grade. Then, of course, the ultimate is to on-sight most routes with that grade.
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misha
Feb 6, 2003, 1:08 AM
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each to his own. i havent had a lot of experience flashing because i am a looser who never gets to climb outside. instead i normally set eliminates and will work those for months.
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alpnclmbr1
Feb 6, 2003, 1:39 AM
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Onsight = no prior knowledge
That is the only definition of an onsight that I have heard
Therefore for a pure onsight
No chalk
Don’t know what it is rated
Haven’t seen anyone on the route
This practically never happens
Probably the closest to an onsight that I have heard of is when bachar did a onsight freesolo first ascent of a 12d in spain
As far as the general use of the term
Most people think you can downclimb and still save the onsight, that’s bull, because you could carry it to a ridiculous extent.
The whole purpose of it is that the community values it more. Therefore you tend try harder, which is a good thing. The same as what lox talks about in relation to a bouldering flash. By the way I think you can onsight a boulder problem on the first ascent. I will agree that it is nitpicking, but it gives me more satisfaction if I do it that way.
For me my best beta flash is a grade easier then my best semi onsight just because I wanted it more. My best onsight was putting the draws in to for the same reason.
So when you want to try extra hard, you try to do onsights as pure as you can make them and it is fun.
End of story.
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