|
fritzski
Feb 4, 2003, 3:22 AM
Post #1 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 4, 2002
Posts: 122
|
As I inderstand it, a "pinkpoint" is a sport climbing term once used to define a climb done with the draws preplaced. It has since become a more or less obsolete term in that it is now considered a redpoint regardless.
In the latest issue of Climbing Magazine, Beth Rodden is given the "Golden Piton Award" for trad climbing with an accompanying photo and caption describing her "pinkpointing" a trad climb.
Am I right in my contention that if the gear is preplaced, then it can't really be considered a true trad climb?
|
|
|
|
|
apollodorus
Feb 4, 2003, 3:25 AM
Post #2 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 2157
|
You can definitely pinkpoint a trad climb. A classic example was when Steve Schneider freed the 5.12+ offwidths on the Excalibur on El Capitan. The pro was pre-placed on aid, the rope was pulled, and then he led the pitches.
|
|
|
|
|
yeti
Feb 4, 2003, 3:38 AM
Post #3 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2002
Posts: 57
|
Pinkpoint sound silly doesn't it? But all it means is a no-falls ascent with preplaced pro. To me what defines trad is has as much to do with leaving little trace than with necessarily having the balls to place your pro on lead.
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Feb 4, 2003, 3:48 AM
Post #4 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
huh,huh, Some of us are still learning. Its better if someone else places the trad gear so in case you fall,it doesn't all pop out.Get it, now???
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Feb 4, 2003, 3:57 AM
Post #5 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Actually, it's always been my understanding that "pinkpoint" is a trad term and isn't really a part of the sport climbing lexicon anyway. So yes, you most definitely can pinkpoint a trad climb- place the pieces on rappel, aid, hangdog lead, whatever, then pull the rope and go back and fire it clean. Some trad lines also have lots of fixed gear, which contributes to the pinkpoint label- like Grand Illusion (one of Beth Rodden's major ticks, probably the one you're referring to)
|
|
|
|
|
alwaysforward
Feb 4, 2003, 4:09 AM
Post #6 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 979
|
i thought the difference between trad and sport was placing your own gear. so no gear placing = not trad leading? i donno, but i think yes you can pinkpoint it
|
|
|
|
|
yeti
Feb 4, 2003, 4:25 AM
Post #7 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2002
Posts: 57
|
Alwaysforward,
maybe another way of thinking of trad climbing is: trad = bringing your gear back home.
|
|
|
|
|
flying_dutchman
Feb 4, 2003, 4:30 AM
Post #8 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 708
|
sport climbing uses quickdraws which you are supposed to place yourself. Trad uses everything else for gear. I saw a pic in a recent climbing mag of some guy doing a big roof-zombie roof in squamish-with preplaced cams and nuts and whatnot so ya, u can pinkpoint trad.
Its like gym climbing then, clip the rope and continue.
|
|
|
|
|
darkside
Feb 4, 2003, 6:15 AM
Post #9 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 1687
|
Here's an idea, use the climbing terms link in the navigation bar to the left. This will tell you many definitions but here is a summary:
Types of Protection-
Trad= traditional or removable pro
Sport= permanently bolted hangers requiring only the addition of draws.
Merit of type of ascent-
Onsight= no beta or previous attempt
Flash= beta but no previous attempt
Redpoint= previously attempted and placing gear or draws during the ascent
Pinkpoint= previously attempted with gear or draws already placed
Check the climbing terms link for full definitions but note that while a pinkpoint takes less effort than placing gear/draws for a redpoint, it has largely fallen into disuse amongst sport climbers in favour of being qualified as a "...redpoint with pre-placed draws...."
Do you now see how it is totally possible to pinkpoint trad routes and how placing the gear on lead has higher merit thereby warranting the distinction of a redpoint.
EDIT for clarity. Trad refers to type of protection regardless of who placed it. Pinkpoint refers to the merit of ascent regardless of type of protection. Watch you don't start confusing apples and oranges here guys, the terms are not interchangable and you cannot sport climb a trad route. If you are clipping pre-placed gear it is a pinkpoint.
[ This Message was edited by: darkside on 2003-02-04 04:27 ]
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Feb 4, 2003, 7:09 AM
Post #10 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
Come on people:
A pinkpoint is a lead of a climb with preplaced gear. That can mean draws or it can mean cams, nuts, big bros, copperheads, pitons, you name it.
You can definitely pinkpoint a trad route.
Enigma, I don't think Beth Rodden was letting someone else place gear because she didn't trust herself. It can be a pain in the butt to clean all your gear from a route after each failure - often involving either finishing the pitch or hiking to the top and then rappeling down to clean stuff out, which can be a serious pain in the ass if it's steep enough. This is why people sometime leave draws on sport routes and gear in cracks when they are projecting them. This is where the majority of pinkpoints that you read about come from.
No assh*le is going to preplace gear on a 5.10 and then get stoked on the pinkpoint. Yes, it occaisonally happens and people to climb on other people's gear on occaision, but any pinkpoint you hear about in the magazine is the result of it being hard to clean the route between attempts and/or the climber not having the strength to place their own gear on each attempt.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Feb 4, 2003, 9:03 AM
Post #11 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
pbjosh,Once again you didn't even read my post,before ripping it apart first.I never even mentioned Beth Rodden.
You should spend some of your free time taking a class in "reading comprehension".
Next time read it s-l-o-w-l-y, at least a few times before commenting.
|
|
|
|
|
leon0tron
Feb 4, 2003, 11:56 AM
Post #12 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2002
Posts: 59
|
it might be a trad route but I personally wouldnt consider it a trad climb unless the gear is placed as you climb. At one of our crags here in Ireland there is a climb that is notorious for eating friends and as a result there is always one or two on the route at all times. When I lead this route it seems to me a bit like cheating when I clip these as I haven't placed them myself. It makes it more like a sport route I guess. I have also, once or twice, preplaced gear on a climb and then lead it. Again, it is a trad route but I wouldnt say I trad climbed it.
|
|
|
|
|
no_limit
Feb 4, 2003, 12:05 PM
Post #13 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 1, 2002
Posts: 973
|
[small]This topic was moved to the Trad Climbing forum by no_limit[/small]
|
|
|
|
|
ridgerunner
Feb 4, 2003, 1:30 PM
Post #14 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 72
|
If I'm not badly mistaken, a trad climb is any lead climb that isn't a sport climb. Trad can be all removeable gear, bolt only protection or a combination of the two. Generally done ground up.
A sport climb is a route with permanet protection placed in such a way as to allow one to concentrate on working difficult moves without worrying about falling.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 4, 2003, 2:27 PM
Post #15 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
Its just a matter of semantics, but a climb with even 1 bolt is called "mixed". A trad climb generally must not have even 1 bolt.
|
|
|
|
|
holygecko
Feb 4, 2003, 2:57 PM
Post #16 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 179
|
As others have already stated, trad is about having guts. I don't agree with this preplacing gear crap. I personally will not credit rodden with this supposed "pinkpoint".
but thats my opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs
|
|
|
|
|
climblouisiana
Feb 4, 2003, 3:36 PM
Post #17 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 3, 2002
Posts: 506
|
Yes, you can pinkpoint a "trad" climb. The style is not as good as placing on the go but it is still an ascent of the route. "Trad" climbing refers to the type of route, ie. crack, etc. and not the style.
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Feb 4, 2003, 5:15 PM
Post #18 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
Why not re-read Darksides definition on page one of this thread, it is stated very clearly the definitions.
It is not a matter of semantics, there is truly differences between, redpoint,flash,onsight and pinkpoint.
Obviously it stands to reason it is more difficult placing your own trad gear,that is why different names are used so we can understand how it was led.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Feb 4, 2003, 5:43 PM
Post #19 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
I definately agree with the people that thinkn that placing your own gear is a basic part of trad climbing ...
.. if the gear was preplaced, then its like sport climbing -- all you gotta do is clip-n-go ..
.. there is something rather adventurous (sp?), and satisfying after your finish a route than you got all elvis-legged while you placed a nut on a $#!&ty friction hold, or had to do a lock while you quickly sank a cam and clipped it.
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
pbjosh
Feb 4, 2003, 5:47 PM
Post #20 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518
|
I also agree that a pinkpoint turns a trad climb into a sport climb.
Enigma, sorry to go off the handle, it sounded like you were talking about Beth Rodden. But I still disagree - most people don't climb on other people's gear. Most trad leaders break into trad climbing by climbing very easy pitches and seconding for more experienced leaders.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 4, 2003, 6:00 PM
Post #21 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
seˇmanˇtics: n. The study or science of meaning in language.
Engima: My comment on semantics was in reply to ridge runners statement/question that trad is any route that is not "sport", which is not completely true. A route with one or more bolts us generally called a "mixed" climb. But whether a 100 ft. route with all trad gear except for 1 bolt should be called a trad route or a mixed route is not a big deal. Thats why I said it was mostly a semantic difference. Sorry I was not clear.
In regard to the difference between doing a hard trad climb with pre-placed gear or placing your gear, obviously there is a big difference.
|
|
|
|
|
enigma
Feb 4, 2003, 6:09 PM
Post #22 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 19, 2002
Posts: 2279
|
Pbjosh, Again I'm just going by the definitions Darkside is using on the first page of this thread.(Thanks for your response).
I think there is a variety of ways people get into leading depending on the circumstances. It was just about what qualifies as "pinkpoint".
I guess sometimes it could make it possible to climb a particular climb, in which the difficulty level is higher. I do agree it is better to place your own trad gear on an easier climb when it is possible. Thereby accomplishing a "redpoint",not a "pinkpoint".
|
|
|
|
|
antimatter
Feb 4, 2003, 6:10 PM
Post #23 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2002
Posts: 140
|
Regarding first ascent styles...
Pinkpoints are generally not reported as first ascents. However, they are a style of ascent regardless of your respect for them or lack therof. It's conceivable that Pinkpoints could be reported as FA's. Personally, I have no interest in Pinkpoints but some people do.
In some guidebooks, you'll see: FA, FFA, TD, GU, BU.
FFA = First Free Ascent (no preplaced gear or aid).
FA = First Ascent (if FFA also is listed, the FA was an aided ascent).
TD = The climb was established Top-Down or on rappel.
GU or BU = The climb was established Ground-up, or Bottom-up, a more traditional style.
[ This Message was edited by: antimatter on 2003-02-04 10:11 ]
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Feb 4, 2003, 6:30 PM
Post #24 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
Look...there is always a gray area regarding any definition is climbing.
Take Lynn Hill's free climb of the Nose. Are there bolts on some of the pitches on the Nose? Of coarse. Did she also clip a few fixed pieces along the way? Probably. Is the Nose a trad climb? In my book it sure as s#%*t is!
Terms like trad and sport or red point and pink point are all used in an effort to describe climbs with more accuracy. We're not talking about laws as in the laws of physics. We're talking about styles and ultimately styles don't have clear boundaries. Arguing about it is rather pointless no?
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Feb 4, 2003, 6:33 PM
Post #25 of 37
(3655 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
FABulous! Another campfire argument on trad styles and ethics! Yeah, let's get crusty and righteous! woo-hoo!! *ding* Round 1!!!
My entry for the moment: Yeah, there is such a thing as mixed pro, but of course you can have a trad line with only bolts. Frictiony slab climbs protected only by bolts out at Joshua Tree, are most definitely NOT sport climbs. They're, uh, bolted trad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
